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by Tagor » 03/01/10, 09:20

gegyx wrote:
On overunity, one concerned very much, and there is a max start Internet replicas that test the engine effect.


here is what is said about overunity


This is Overunity.com what were you expecting, discussing ethanol as a fuel?



we can turn the problem upside down and say

why talk about surunity on econology?
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by elephant » 03/01/10, 12:26

Well, we talk about magnetic motors .....
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by Tagor » 03/01/10, 12:45

elephant wrote:Well, we talk about magnetic motors .....


not very convinced of this answer !!

you speak may be in the past?
"we were talking there ...."
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by nlc » 03/01/10, 17:24

Interesting the principle of this engine ...

The fact that there is no backfem is simply amazing !! And the fact that the "load" applied to the motor does not influence the current in the toroids is even more so, but this phenomenon goes hand in hand with the absence of backfem.

There is matter to dig in my opinion :!: :!:
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by nlc » 04/01/10, 14:16

I had some insomnia this night, so I thought a little engine. Unless my insomnia comes from the fact that I just thought about this engine, I do not know too much : Cheesy:

The basic principle is simple: a magnet attracts a ferrite core, except when the latter is "magnetized" by the passage of current in the coil around the ferrite core.

So by mounting the magnets on the rotor, and with tori on the stator, and magnetizing at the right moment tori so that the magnets are no longer attracted, the rotor turns and gaining speed because there is an imbalance, when the magnet approaches the torus it is attracted, but when it moves away it is no longer.

Instinctively, I will say that the tori must be magnetized until the magnets have traveled half the distance to the next torus. Otherwise the magnet is again attracted by the previous torus, which should lose a little torque to the engine.

However, on the various videos, the coils seem to magnetize during 1 / 3 time, even a little less, which makes that the torus is demagnetized while the magnet has only one third of the way to the next torus , curious.

In any case, one thing is certain, the maximum torque of this motor is only linked to the "force of attraction" between the magnets and the toroids.
So the torque is maximum when the torus has no influence on the magnet in the phase of removal.

It can therefore be said that if the current in the toroids is independent of the resisting torque applied to the motor axis (demonstrated in the JLN tests), on the other hand the maximum torque of the engine is well dependent on the current in the coil in the magnetization phase: if the current is not strong enough, the torus must still attract a little magnet, the imbalance between the approach / removal phase is not maximum, and so the torque is not maximal either.

On replicas, including that of Naudin, we see that the engine reaches a moment a max speed. This one corresponds in fact to the balance between the max torque and the resistant torque due to the friction of the bearings and the air.

My intuition is that despite the confusing appearance of the engine, it can never be superunit, because you can never use more mechanical power on the rotor than it takes electrical energy to magnetize tori. To have more mechanical power it would take more torque, so a greater attraction between toroids and magnets (magnets more powerful, etc ...), but suddenly more current to magnetize tori.
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by bernardd » 04/01/10, 16:06

Hello,

Thank you NLC for these reflections.

I must say that often, the texts around these "exotic engines" are more esoteric than explanations, and I quickly give up reading.

This is the first time that I have the impression of understanding JLNaudin's text on this subject, and of being able to give it the name of "explanation" :-) Thanks to him, therefore.

If I understand correctly, on a motor with permanent magnet rotor, an electric current is used to create at the right moment an opposite magnetic field on the stator.

Here, on the stator, we use the static magnetic field of a ferromagnetic torus (therefore without expenditure of energy) and we use an electric current only to "stop" the static magnetic field.

Starting from the hope that it takes less energy for this stopping current, then this engine should consume less than for the current solution. See consume less than it produces, why not dream ;-) According to the example of JLNaudin, he speaks of a consumed power of 5W. But the power produced by the engine is not measured.

Does the stopping current depend on the power of the permanent magnets of the rotor? How the energy lost in this current
the shutdown depend on the behavior of the ferromagnetic core?
So many unknowns for me ...

One can also think of putting another permanent magnet in place of the ferromagnetic torus, then to stop the magnetic field by inserting / removing a material with high magnetic permeability as the mu-metal, or to reverse the field by rotating the magnet at the right moment ...

There is something to have fun, we wonder what are the TD's for today :-)
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by nlc » 04/01/10, 16:24

bernardd wrote:If I understand correctly, on a motor with permanent magnet rotor, an electric current is used to create at the right moment an opposite magnetic field on the stator.


That's it, we create a magnetic field that attracts / pushes the rotor magnets, and the motor torque is proportional to the current.


bernardd wrote:Here, on the stator, we use the static magnetic field of a ferromagnetic torus (therefore without expenditure of energy) and we use an electric current only to "stop" the static magnetic field.


That's it, so it's almost the opposite of what we usually do. But here the maximum torque is the maximum attraction between tori and magnets, which must take place when the magnetization of the torus is complete, which surely correspond to a minimum current value.

bernardd wrote:Starting from the hope that it takes less energy for this stopping current, then this engine should consume less than for the current solution. See consume less than it produces, why not dream ;-) According to the example of JLNaudin, he speaks of a consumed power of 5W. But the power produced by the engine is not measured.

For the moment its engine is empty, so the 5W partly leave in smoke in the parasitic resistance of the cores of tori, and the other in my opinion is in the friction of the rotor (air and bearings).

bernardd wrote:Does the stopping current depend on the power of the permanent magnets of the rotor? How the energy lost in this current
the shutdown depend on the behavior of the ferromagnetic core?
So many unknowns for me ...

To check but I actually think that the stopping current depends on the power of the magnets of the rotor.

bernardd wrote:One can also think of putting another permanent magnet in place of the ferromagnetic torus, then to stop the magnetic field by inserting / removing a material with high magnetic permeability as the mu-metal, or to reverse the field by rotating the magnet at the right moment ...

There is something to have fun, we wonder what are the TD's for today :-)

This idea has already been mentioned, or even tested quite often, on certain subjects of this forum d'ailleurs
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by bernardd » 04/01/10, 16:43

nlc wrote:For the moment its engine is empty, so the 5W partly leave in smoke in the parasitic resistance of the cores of tori, and the other in my opinion is in the friction of the rotor (air and bearings).


And in the hysteresis of the state change of the ferromagnetic metal, if it's like for the transformers. In this case, the influence of the permanent magnets of the rotor would be only indirect, by an action on the internal state of the material.

If only the rotational or friction losses annoy us, there is no problem :-)

nlc wrote:This idea has already been mentioned, or even tested quite often, on certain subjects of this forum d'ailleurs


If you have memories of concrete subjects, I feel more ready to read them now that I understood the technical objective pursued :-)
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by nlc » 04/01/10, 17:07

In the subject magnetic motor of all kinds, or something like that!
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by crispus » 04/01/10, 18:06

Hello,

Actually after reading NLC's long post and visiting the site of JLN I reach close conclusions ...

This motor is reminiscent of a reluctance motor, but working "backwards".

Virtually all motors use 2 magnets, one fixed to the other mobile, at least one of which is an electromagnet with variable polarities.

In a reluctance stepper motor, a series of electromagnets successively attract a soft iron core in rotation.

Here, the core becomes the fixed torus and "disappears" by demagnetization, while the "coils" become the rotating magnets which appear successively in front of the torus.

A single torus should be enough to ensure rotation, but the torque would be too low to be operated as a motor.

As for the reluctance motor, it would take at least 3 coils to ensure automatic start in the chosen direction.

The maximum torque must logically depend on:
- induction in the permanent magnet / toroidal air gap,
- the inverse of the square of the magnet-toroid distance,
- facing surfaces,
- and the volume of the torus, which determines the "storable" magnetic energy in the material ...

Logically, the current "erasure" canceling the force of attraction is itself also dependent on the volume of the torus. So there is a maximum torque / current relationship that leaves little chance of reaching overunit ... :frown:

But this is not a reason to stop experimenting until everything is quantified.

I remember having studied there 20 years a reluctance motor, alas in very limited time because in the context of a competition: the ratio dimensions / power was impressive!

Concerning the speed, it is limited amha by the rise time of the current related to the inductance: by increasing the tension, the slope should follow (i ~ Ut / L), and the speed also.
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