Vortex wind turbine towers: synthesis

Forum solar photovoltaic PV and solar electricity generation from direct radiation solar energy.
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 29/03/11, 17:40

My point is that the maximum Carnot yield (in reality we are one third most often) for a 50 ° C difference is 50 / (273 + 20 + 50) = 0,146 = 14% very low on the heat recovered.
We have much better on the same collection surface with a solar concentrator and T of 300 ° C and more, at least that of a nuclear power station, because the sun is without radioactive radiations which destroy everything.

And the direct local heating of a house by simple low T thermal sensor (air or fluid) is greater than 50% !!

So I persist in my simple assessments.

Links should put credible ratings without betraying secrets, which are details that don't work miracles, but since they don't put them, it destroys trust.

For example, a power of 300 megawatts with a yield of 10% (max conceivable if almost perfect and 50 ° C available) requires with the sun giving 1KW / m2 a surface of mini greenhouses (vertical sun in the Sahara) of 3million m2 evening 3Km2 of greenhouses and 3 to 4 times less with concentrators giving a much better yield or roof surfaces of houses with local solar heating.

On his site, L. Michaud seems to want to control a large cyclone or large perpetual tornado without greenhouse sensors, with a hot lake around, which replaces the greenhouses as sensor (in my opinion impossible without hot lake).
The collection surface is also the same and the unclear problem is the continuous maintenance of the arrival of this hot air which is highly likely to not last, as shown by tornadoes and cyclones which move to maintain their heat source hot which disappears once cooled (very unpredictably).
Greenhouses allow better control of the stability of hot air.

L. Michaud writes:
http://vortexengine.ca/sommaire.shtml
The work-heat efficiency is around 15% because the heat is received at an average temperature of +15 ° C and transferred at an average temperature of -15 ° C

whereas the maximum Carnot yield (never achieved) is under these conditions:
(15 + 15) / (273 + 15) = 0,1 = 10% and not at all 15% and the yield actually achieved is probably a third or 3%, after losses and imperfections !!
So L. Michaud is very very optimistic by a factor of 5 !!

On his 4m vortex demonstration video, L. Michaud obtains an unstable vortex, much less than a real tornado.
Tornadoes do not form from the ground, but by descending from the clouds with auxiliary vortices on the sides which stabilize them in a very complex way (reports on Arte) and therefore I remain very skeptical, for an operation, amounting to 10 times the height of the chimney, much better than that of a chimney swirl shown on the video.

Whereas the local heating of houses by simple thermal sensors with air or water has an efficiency which exceeds 50%!

Ask cuicui 88 with its roof to redo become a solar collector cheaper than the roof in the Vosges, not hot.
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20toiture/

It seems coherent to save a maximum of energy which is used to heat in a decentralized way, instead of making large power stations to supply the electricity which is used to heat and losing 2/3 or even more in these conversions.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 29/03/11, 18:14

dedelco wrote:

It seems coherent to save a maximum of energy which is used to heat in a decentralized way, instead of making large power stations to supply the electricity which is used to heat and losing 2/3 or even more in these conversions.


We are in complete agreement on this point, nevertheless we are not moving from a system based on centralized mismanagement to a virtuous decentralized system.
There has to be a transition, and vortex towers can help.
Concentrated solar is good, but insufficient in France (except for the installation of solar islands in the Mediterranean).

The use of stoker heat in the ground is a great idea, however it will not allow you to run a washing machine or your computer, let alone in the heart of Paris.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Death of Monsieur Coustou, Alain.




by sen-no-sen » 24/11/12, 13:02

Hello everyone,

I regret to announce the death of Mr Alain Coustou awesome co-designer of wind turbine towers, his funeral took place Thursday November 15, 2012.

Rest in peace.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
highfly-addict
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 757
Registration: 05/03/08, 12:07
Location: Pyrenees, 43 years
x 7




by highfly-addict » 24/11/12, 13:55

Hmm ...
While waiting for a concrete realization (...), the epithet attributed to the gentleman seems inappropriate to me.
0 x
"God laughs at those who deplore the effects of which they cherish the causes" BOSSUET
"We see what we believes"Dennis MEADOWS
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 24/11/12, 18:29

highflyaddict wrote:Hmm ...
While waiting for a concrete realization (...), the epithet attributed to the gentleman seems inappropriate to me.


So, if I follow your logic, an inventor / designer cannot be considered as brilliant, only if its realization finds an attentive ear to the industrialists? :frown:
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
highfly-addict
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 757
Registration: 05/03/08, 12:07
Location: Pyrenees, 43 years
x 7




by highfly-addict » 24/11/12, 20:10

: Cheesy:, no, of course !

In his case, (and this is very regrettable) manufacturers are necessary to validate the concept .... which remains only a concept.

"Brilliant" concepts I know a lot ... while concrete achievements, much less.

For me, genius has to rub against reality to be truly one.
0 x
"God laughs at those who deplore the effects of which they cherish the causes" BOSSUET

"We see what we believes"Dennis MEADOWS
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 24/11/12, 20:39

Oulah, then there ... It's not "surunity" that, but quite concrete amha.

It is obvious that the potential is there. You just have to see the call for air that you can see by leaving a door ajar, from there to put a turbine to capture the energy ... We cannot deny that it does not exist, it's just “augmented wind”. With these towers, we only artificially recreate something that already exists, that is to say the ideal suction conditions to obtain the maximum efficiency and we harvest the kW / h ... The big advantage is that playing on the temperature differential between the bottom and the top of the tower, suction is obtained even in "dead calm" situations where a wind turbine would not produce anything!

Besides, I'm a little surprised that a paraglider doubts this, he who knows the power of updrafts ...

So I don't think there is anything to have any doubts about, except that it requires a lot of work and that mentalities have to change ... Especially since we are ready to pay for energy more expensive...

I also believe that there is one under construction, but I can not say where, perhaps in a desert ... somewhere in Saudi Arabia?

But the fact is that this brilliant idea cannot help ... Now, after having done all the calculations, is a wind farm more interesting, even with the risk of flat calm, very clever which might say, it will undoubtedly have to be investigated and calculated properly. It would be a simple job for a technical school at a university level.
Last edited by Obamot the 24 / 11 / 12, 20: 52, 2 edited once.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 24/11/12, 20:40

highflyaddict wrote:: cheesy :, not of course!

In his case, (and this is very regrettable) manufacturers are necessary to validate the concept .... which remains only a concept.


So you missed the episode of validation by technicatom (Areva) ...

At the time of numerical modeling, it is no longer necessary to make life-size constructions to validate a concept (... of this kind, namely based on well-known thermodynamic phenomena).

Of course, construction on a scale of 1 will make it possible to correct the unexpected, but the orders of magnitude will remain broadly correct.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 24/11/12, 20:45

Obamot wrote:Oulah, then there ... It's not "surunity" that, but quite concrete amha.


Absolutely! We are not talking here about a concept that cannot be mastered, but about thermodynamics!
All this has been known for ages: Venturi, Bernoulli, Carnot etc!
What is needed is substantial funding.
The game in your largely the candle.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
highfly-addict
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 757
Registration: 05/03/08, 12:07
Location: Pyrenees, 43 years
x 7




by highfly-addict » 24/11/12, 21:19

sen-no-sen wrote:So you missed the episode of validation by technicatom (Areva) ...

At the time of numerical modeling, it is no longer necessary to make life-size constructions to validate a concept (... of this kind, namely based on well-known thermodynamic phenomena).

Of course, construction on a scale of 1 will make it possible to correct the unexpected, but the orders of magnitude will remain broadly correct.


A little link?

As for numerical modeling, it really predicts a vortex of 20000 m? Seriously?
0 x
"God laughs at those who deplore the effects of which they cherish the causes" BOSSUET

"We see what we believes"Dennis MEADOWS

Back to "Renewable energy: solar electricity"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 246 guests