Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate

Organize and arrange your garden and vegetable garden: ornamental, landscape, wild garden, materials, fruits and vegetables, vegetable garden, natural fertilizers, shelters, pools or natural swimming pool. lifetime plants and crops in your garden.
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Janic » 12/12/18, 08:56

Here are some principles of zetetics that are good to bear in mind when faced with a mysterious phenomenon so as not to be manipulated by others ... or by oneself.
It's nice to have principles, but they have to respect them, which is not the case most of the time.
For example:

III. The burden of proof is on the person who asserts it.
Who claims the safety of glyphosate, for example? Its maker, right? Where are these proofs of safety? :?: from where :

Also, it is naturally to the one who asserts the existence of an unknown phenomenon to bring proof. Who knows what, then?
At the question " Why do not you believe (to the safety of glyphosate) ", must therefore first ask, "And you, why do you believe it? "

IV. An extraordinary allegation requires more than ordinary evidence.
Indeed, more statements come out known framethe more they have to rely on solid information and thorough checks to be credible.

There is confusion between the known framework and the recognized framework (by whom?) And thus by a priori elimination of what comes out of the known in question. And here again who decrees the known in question: the manufacturer who pretends to be judge and part at the same time.

V. The origin of the information is fundamental.
Who never found himself defending information that turned out to be wrong?

Yeah! finally intelligent thinking ! and which is behind the assertion of the safety of glyphosate: the manufacturer himself!

Doubt about the validity of information is essential as long as the source and the original content of it are not known.
Yeah! known or recognized and by whom?

"Where does the information come from? And "Who brings it back? Are two questions to ask if you want to avoid speculating on the wind.
Re-re-yeah! Where does the information come from and who is reporting it? That's where they should start. In general, even in good faith, one can not be judge and party at the same time. But currently, this is the case for all industrial sectors, including and especially Monsanto and its delicious soup.

VI. Amount of evidence is not quality of evidence.
Then there is the explosion of the final bouquet that illuminates the entire sky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, still, I enjoy it!
Who pours his "evidence" on and by all the media? The manufacturer of a product by its advertising, by its marketing, not by real evidence.

Thus, a repeated 1000 sentence does not become true. [*]
Stop, I can not, it's complete ecstasy! And yes, repeat their fake news has never established a truth so far

A conclusive experiment is always more valuable than thousands of unverified indexes.
There is more than ecstasy, it's indescribable. (Not found equivalent smileys)
Who, on the AVEC of another subject, hold an opposite speech. The hundreds, thousands, of experimenters then have a favorable opinion of these zeticians while chatters speak as having authority of what they do not know, that they have not checked on some contradictory clues.

"When the wise man shows the moon, zetetics always keep an eye on the finger" - Zetetic proverb
I prefer them this one: " When the wise man shows the moon, the zetetic always keeps a finger in the eye "Obvious proverb! : Cheesy: : Cheesy:
[*] "Error does not become truth because it spreads and multiplies itself; the truth does not become a mistake because no one sees it. " and so:
"the lie does not become truth because it spreads and multiplies and the truth does not become error because no one wants to see it"
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13716
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1525
Contact :

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by izentrop » 12/12/18, 09:26

Janic wrote:III. The burden of proof is on the person who asserts it.
Who claims the safety of glyphosate, for example? Its maker, right? Where are these proofs of safety?
For more than 40 years without problem, it does not have to be proven, on the other hand, against those who claim the opposite, to prove it.

Finally the newspaper Le Monde returns to the bullshit he has not stopped broadcasting through Stefane Foucart, even if it is only in a blog
At the price of about 15 million euros spent by the European Commission and France and thousands of laboratory rats. By three different and independent experiences. Much better prepared and conducted than that of Gilles-Eric Séralini. And for what result? Let's get straight to the goal, as at the Olympique de Marseille: RAS.
http://huet.blog.lemonde.fr/2018/12/11/ ... e-seralini
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Janic » 12/12/18, 11:02

For more than 40 years without problem, it does not have to be proven, on the other hand, against those who claim the opposite, to prove it.
this is called returning an argument without valid justification, your zetetic sect is clear in its articles of faith.
III. The burden of proof is on the person who claims. In order to have a marketing authorization, a manufacturer must provide proof of what he claims and in this case the non-harmful effect of his product. So was this evidence brought? Then a danger can appear only well after the placing on the market (as some drugs like the ViOOX have done damage "the Food and Drug Administration, the taking of this drug could have caused in the United States, between 1999 and 2003, some 27.785 myocardial infarctions or deaths by heart attack.) for others it is on the next 3 generations aggravating the effects that other sanitary products have revealed their impact.
nor was it proven (except for the victims) that DDT used since the end of the 2 ° World War was dangerous.

In 1948, the Swiss chemist Paul Hermann Müller, who is not the inventor of DDT7, received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for his discovery of the high effectiveness of DDT as a poison against various arthropods8".

In 1962, the American biologist Rachel Carson published the book Silent Spring (Silent Spring) accusing DDT of being carcinogenic and reprotoxic (preventing the good reproduction of birds by slimming the shell of their eggs9). This book created a real uproar and was at the origin of various ecological movements [ref. necessary]. It encouraged ecotoxicological assessments that led - from the 1970 years - to gradually ban DDT in some countries. Elsewhere, its use has continued to combat disease vectors, but remains controversial (as a persistent organic pollutant [POPs], and for its ecosystem effects).

50 years after Rachel Carson's call, an environmental history study in Canada analyzed a layer of guano swifts accumulated in a "dormitory" used by these birds from 1940 to the present day. She confirmed that DDT actually had a significant impact on insectivorous birds, but by a mechanism in addition to the one identified by Carson: by decimating many of the insects they feed on (especially beetles, their most nourishing prey). )
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodiph%C3%A9nyltrichloro%C3%A9thane

Same thing for asbestos what's required a century! So an appearance of safety over a limited time does not mean in any way a longer-term safety as for aluminum, more and more questioned by the world's leading specialists.
See the clear and unambiguous opinion of the world specialist on aluminum, quoted on the topic of vaccines, and his reaction to Prof. Autran who works for the aluminum industry (conflict of interest) which affirms, with Aplomb, the safety of aluminum in human biology, as the minister besides (which she asserts the safety of aluminum since 90 years, with the same plumb). If this is the kind of characters you are referring to to affirm the harmlessness of this product, we have gone wrong in this case.
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
Moindreffor
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 5830
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 957

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Moindreffor » 12/12/18, 20:25

not quite the same subject but it gives sobering, we are victim of the only information that we want to give us

GMO-poisons? The true end of the Séralini affair


Do you remember ? These spectacular images of rats with invasive cancers, so big that they see the balls under the hair. Exhibited on television. Broadcast in film, book, resounding articles. And this wonderful press campaign launched by the shock of the Obs: "Yes, GMOs are poisons."

Yes, you remember. But do you know that the December 10, the journal Toxicology Sciences published one of the research articles showing that it was an infox? Certainly not.

Let's go back to September 2012. The weekly then publishes a thick file in support of its title. But a strange file: his only sources of information are the team of Professor Gilles-Eric Séralini, lead author of an experiment published the same day and activists opposed to the use of transgenic plants. As if the team of journalists of the Nouvel Observateur mobilized for this shot of the press did not need anyone, in particular other experts of the subject, to judge the solidity of the thesis presented by the team of the biologist. Strange because this thesis opposes frontally many studies already published. By claiming that rats fed genetically engineered corn to tolerate glyphosate - the active ingredient in the world's most widely used herbicides by farmers, including the famous Round Up invented by Monsanto - suffer until death.

Radios and TVs go on without further critical investigation - but it's difficult at this rate - to the point that the government, through the voice of its Minister of Agriculture, Stéphane Le Foll, announces the same evening that he will request an amendment to European procedures to assess the risks of transgenic plants before they are placed on the market.

Raw data

A few months later, the two public agencies concerned - ANSES and HCB - published a complete analysis of the article by Gilles-Eric Séralini et al. and both concluded that he was unable to prove anything. The raw data from the experiment show that its poor performance, in particular by the small size of the control groups, made it impossible to draw any conclusion from the observations made on the health of the rats after two years of modified genetically modified maize ( 1).

However, ANSES recommended conducting a "whole life" experiment - two years for rats - in order to answer the question asked by Séralini: "to eat this transgenic maize makes it sick in the long term, in particular it causes there cancers? ". For its part, the HCB Scientific Committee did not really recommend it, but said in essence: if it can make citizens and consumers trust, why not?

Was this done? Yes. At the price of about 15 million euros spent by the European Commission and France and thousands of laboratory rats. By three different and independent experiences. Much better prepared and conducted than that of Gilles-Eric Séralini. And for what result? Let's get straight to the goal, as at the Olympique de Marseille: RAS. Nothing to report about the health of the rats whether they are fed 90 days, a year or two years, with transgenic maize (for both glyphosate-tolerant maize and the one producing its own insecticide). There are certainly some signals in the French experience, but more related to differences between grain varieties used, not really between transgenic and non-transgenic maize.

Let's dream a little

Before coming to these experiences and their results, let's dream a little. Let us dream that the newspapers, radios, televisions, journalists and NGOs or political leaders who have assured their audiences, readers, voters and activists that Gilles-Eric Séralini had "proved" that "GMOs" are deadly "poisons", will devote as much effort, time of words, length of articles and public statements to announce this now well established news.

This dream has no chance of being realized. These actions are not likely to yield any votes in an election, no support of a public opinion to candidates for elected positions more motivated by their conquests than the quality of the public debate. Press side either: this type of normal information, we learned in journalism schools, "does not sell." The man who bites a dog is an info, but if it's a dog that bites a man, it's only an info if he dies. A transgenic plant that kills is information; she is content to feed, it is not one. And the nearly 98% of the journalists who have written about this affair without reading the original article by GE Séralini will not read the results of these experiments any more or be encouraged to present them by editors who will not see not the reason for a bleeding title.

So, let's stop dreaming. And inform.

Four experiments were conducted. Three European and one French.

Marlon who studied the state of health of farm animals fed transgenic plants compared with that of animals not consuming them.
GRACE (GMO risk assessment and communication of evidence) in a regulatory toxicological framework with corn MON 810 (corn modified to produce insecticide toxin Bt) with studies at 90 days and at one year in order to verify if the protocols to 90 days do not miss slower processes.
G-TwYST (GM plants two years safety testing) which carries out the whole life experiment with glyphosate tolerant corn and aimed at the appearance of long-term cancers that GE Séralini claimed to do ... but with rats better chosen for this type study and in sufficient numbers (50 in each of the groups tested and control groups against the ten of Séralini) to obtain significant statistics.
GMO 90 + is the French experience, proposed by Bernard Salles, the last author of the article Toxicological Sciences. It was intended to study whether one can extract from a six-month experiment information on biological "precursors" that could indicate future health problems in the tested rats. The experiment is conducted with both transgenic corn types (glyphosate tolerant and Bt). It uses so-called "omics" technologies (proteomics, etc.) to track weak signals in the metabolism that may be precursors of diseases occurring in the longer term. It was funded by the Ministry of Ecological and Solidarity Transition.

These experiments are completed, the results published or in the course of publication (but already known to the specialists because exposed in seminars). The GMO90 + experiment has just been published in Toxicological Sciences. They must be fully cross-referenced and fully transparent on the raw data of each. The information available all goes in the same direction: for a rat, swallowing maize made tolerant to glyphosate, or producer of the toxin Bt (from a common bacterium) or a corn standard, it is kif kif for his health. The study GMO90 +, very thorough, concludes the absence of effects (clinical, physiopathological, in urine tests ...) of a food with genetically modified corn. The two-year study shows no particular effect on the occurrence of cancers.

A few comments :

► To say that these experiments prove that "GMOs are not poisons" would be a nonsense of the same caliber as the opposite statement of Nouvel Observateur in September 2012. They only show that the transgenic plants tested, and only those, are not poisons.

► These experiments give reason once again to biologists who consider that it is necessary "a reason" (biochemical, biological) to ask if this or that transgenic plant poses a problem of health or not and not to assume a priori that the Introduction of a gene (or its manipulation using new techniques available as CRISPR) represents a higher health risk than, for example, an artificial cross used in traditional seed selection. In this case, there was no "reason" to believe that the glyphosate tolerance gene or the gene for the production of Bt toxin and the proteins they encode constituted a health risk for human consumption.

► Genetic manipulation technologies are progressing, notably with CRISPR. The prospect of seeing plants modified for crops is growing. The militant response of wanting to force a priori suspicion of these modified plants and wanting to ban these techniques in a generic way could well end in a generalized defeat and the decline in vigilance. The results of these three experiments are thus agitated by seed companies using transgenesis and their supporters to claim ... that one does not do any more toxicological studies at 90 days on transgenic plants. It was the backlash that had to be feared, a backlash all the more dangerous with the new techniques of editing the genome. Regulatory framework decisions were indeed made on the basis of "spasms of public opinion", notes a sociologist, and not on scientific analyzes showing the need to take precautions with the products of a new technology.

► While these experiments demonstrate the sanitary safety of these two transgenic plants, they do not say anything about their (in) utility or their social, economic, agronomic and environmental effects.

► Since it is very unlikely that the conclusive results of these experiments carried out with a great deal of care will be disseminated to citizens and consumers, as well as to "decision-makers" (elected in particular), it is regrettable that the affair Seralini is that of a false alarm launcher, since any false alarm occupies a part of the citizenship and public expertise available for a real health or environmental alert. Certainly, it is better to be wrong from time to time and treat a false alarm that to miss a real but not drowning in false alerts is essential. Otherwise, it's the story of the little boy who was still shouting at the wolf and who was not believed when the real wolf arrived that may occur.

► The European Union having limited to 5 the current authorization of glyphosate, three years for France, it is likely that this herbicide will see its use decline and then disappear in Europe. This solves the problem of transgenic plants that are tolerant to this molecule and will therefore have no interest. But what will be the consequence of this decision followed anywhere else in the world? If a coherent policy of lesser use, or even a large-scale non-use, of herbicides for crops ensues, that would be a great benefit. However, we must not be mistaken: agronomic changes (complex rotations, mechanical weeding that involves hours of tractors, de-specialization of territories, etc.) and support for farmers (fluctuations in yields) necessary to achieve this are very important ( see here a report published in Libération on INRA studies for the slightest or no use of herbicides in field crops). In the absence of such a policy, which we do not see coming, it is feared that there is increased use of other herbicides whose environmental risks are worse than those of glyphosate.

► The assessment of immoderate use of glyphosate herbicides, boosted or not by transgenic plants tolerant to glyphosate, is also the rise of resistance, a general phenomenon treated in the delivery of the May 18 Science magazine by a series articles. The review asks: "Can we deal with the sociobiological dilemma of pesticide resistance," a vocabulary showing that the problem is as much economic and social as techno-scientific. One of the most iconic examples is that of glyphosate herbicides (Monsanto's round-up is the most famous but far from the only one). The excessive use of these herbicides in countries that grow transgenic plants resistant to glyphosate has resulted in more than 40 weed species ("weeds" in learned language) developing resistance to this molecule. A Darwinian process inherent in any chemical control of this kind against a plant and which supposes a long-term strategy other than its repetitive use at increased doses in the face of the resistance that emerges if sustainable agricultural practices are to be desired.

But there are also more 550 species of arthropods that have developed resistance to at least one insecticide. Conversely, the balance of transgenic plants modified to produce the insecticidal toxin of Bt (used in organic farming) is much better: as long as we respect the refuge areas and we are in a landscape of moderate size fields and various crops, the result is an improvement of the environment and the better health of agricultural insects (spiders, ladybugs, etc.) as has been demonstrated in China on areas where Bt transgenic cotton is grown.

► However, we can not say that we must continue a policy that favors the use of chemicals without stronger precautions. Signals show it, like this recent study of a team from INRA that has demonstrated the famous "cocktail effect" for pesticides at very low doses ingested by mice. The study was published here. For an easier reading see the press release from INRA here. It should be noted that among the 6 pesticides (2) studied, we find the fungicide based on boscalid. However, it is part of the SDHI (succinate dehydrogenase inhibitors), widely used fungicides which a group of scientists believes should be investigated the health risk file. Mechanisms of molecular action likely to impact human health have been discovered. The first rather negative reaction of the ANSES (3) to this request does not seem encouraging whereas if the demonstration of a risk justifying their prohibition remains to be made, the scientific arguments in support of a serious instruction are much more stronger than what was advanced by the Séralini team in the glyphosate case. It is tempting to wonder if the effect "child crying wolf" is not already in action ...

► final note: it is useful to read in extenso the report of a seminar of the RisKOGM program, which financed the study GMO90 +, which reads this remark by Armin Spök from the University of Klagenfurt: do not overestimate what open science really is capable of doing, especially with respect to highly polarizing areas and controversial regulatory issues such as the topic of GMOs, because open science can not solve or mitigate controversies about the underlying contextual factors. "

To translate this language into clearer terms: some participants in these dialogues are not willing to give up their original affirmations, even though normal science shows that they are wrong, because their belief is actually rooted in other points, economic, social or even moral, for which the compromise is not envisaged. This is why, for example, Gilles-Eric Séralini and many of his supporters have never accepted the scientific verdict yet firmly established on their original experience and that it is very unlikely that they will admit that the three experiments conducted for to answer the question they had badly handled are conclusive.

The difficulty of organizing a debate when the participants have a vision of battle with winners and losers also explains the doldrums of the High Council of Biotechnologies with serial resignations and blockages.

Sylvestre Huet
1 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear the best"
(of me)
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Janic » 13/12/18, 08:21

are we victim of the only information that we want to give us
Inevitably. The news is like food, there are some foods that are preferred by others hated, then they end up pleasing differently prepared and the first are not as good because lacking taste precisely. But these foods are and remain those which are offered by the big distributors (// with the official information or coming from the media under their influence).
The Internet has this quality and flaw at the same time, which is to offer ALL the information in bulk as a huge market with products coming from all parts of the world, which makes it difficult if you have to taste everything. And as a result, it is often the most delicious dishes that are not consumed in favor of industrial foods to which the populations have ended up getting used (by obligation and lack of choice) That is to say "what we want to give us“However, the notion of victim is often superimposed on the notion of accomplice more or less aware of these choices.
And this is the case of glyphosate which is part of this "what we want to give us"as say farmers who are little aware or ignorant of the effects and impacts of these actions imposed on them by the phytosanitary industry (a misguided designation of its real meaning).
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
Moindreffor
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 5830
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 957

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Moindreffor » 13/12/18, 08:54

Janic wrote:
are we victim of the only information that we want to give us
Inevitably. The news is like food, there are some foods that are preferred by others hated, then they end up pleasing differently prepared and the first are not as good because lacking taste precisely. But these foods are and remain those which are offered by the big distributors (// with the official information or coming from the media under their influence).
The Internet has this quality and flaw at the same time, which is to offer ALL the information in bulk as a huge market with products coming from all parts of the world, which makes it difficult if you have to taste everything. And as a result, it is often the most delicious dishes that are not consumed in favor of industrial foods to which the populations have ended up getting used (by obligation and lack of choice) That is to say "what we want to give us“However, the notion of victim is often superimposed on the notion of accomplice more or less aware of these choices.
And this is the case of glyphosate which is part of this "what we want to give us"as say farmers who are little aware or ignorant of the effects and impacts of these actions imposed on them by the phytosanitary industry (a misguided designation of its real meaning).


and your opinion on the article
Once the research is done again in a rigorous way and in several sites which show that that retained as info gave results in conformity with those which one wanted to find, but erroneous, that will it change your vision or more simply or very modestly t to question or even create a doubt?

or as the article points out
some participants in these dialogues are not ready to give up their original assertions, even if the normal science shows that they are wrong, because their conviction is in fact anchored on other points, economic, social or even moral for which the compromise is not envisaged.
I will have added "beliefs" but did he not dare and content himself with "moral" by making an implication, but must you want to hear it

you do not answer my question to avoid this possible doubt, or you did not understand where I wanted to go
0 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear the best"
(of me)
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Janic » 13/12/18, 10:28

and your opinion on the article
once the searches are redone so rigorous and in several sites that show that detention as info gave results consistent with those we wanted to findbut erroneous, will it change your vision or more simply or very modestly question you or even create a doubt?

It's a philosophical question then. So everyone can answer in their own way which does not advance the schmilblick! The notion of error is also dependent on the reference system. For example in politics (but it's valid for anything else) the extremes, so with diametrically opposed points of view, are convinced that it is the other whose point of view is wrong and that benefits at least at the extremes (not at the least extremes) by recommending from their own point of view that relies on this part of the article below. But what is it normal science since the meaning of science is precisely not to be limited by any normality that will be questioned by other "future normality".

or as the article points out
some participants in these dialogues are not ready to give up their original statements, even if normal science shows that they are wrongbecause their conviction is in fact anchored on other points, economic, social or even moral, for which the compromise is not envisaged.


I will have added "beliefs" but did he not dare and content himself with "moral" by making an implication, but must you want to hear it

All is belief! can it be otherwise? Each individual needs to reassure himself by believing that his point of view, his action, his commitment is the right one (in his eyes). So a biblical maxim (and not that) says that it is to its fruits that we recognize a tree, but not only to its fruits but also and above all to the satisfaction of its consumption and as this saying goes popular: "the tastes and the colors it is not discussed"

Explanation
Tastes and colors are not chosen according to rational criteria. It is therefore useless to try to convince his interlocutor that his are good or bad. Nobody can indeed be right. The use of this proverb is often extended to opinions.

you do not answer my question to avoid this possible doubt, or you did not understand where I wanted to go

both my captain! As soon as I hear or read standardized speeches, on the rails of good thinking, I am suspicious, but as far as I respect the diversity of opinions (which does not mean that I share them obviously)
My opinions largely expressed on various subjects like: the current medicine taken hostage by BP, the scandal of the vaccines with aluminum or not, the food mode in complete shift with the biology and the anatomy with in addition the chemicals which kill the peoples Small fires (so Monsanto type) are already heavy to express and I can not pretend to see a field of knowledge on all subjects of society. So without any opinion on these.

PS: I have not analyzed this speech word by word, in my opinion a little vague, but I do not share absolutely certains points and affirmations that are more dogma than a real scientific approach, but we are only humans! : Cry:
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
Moindreffor
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 5830
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 957

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Moindreffor » 13/12/18, 11:12

I think there we are before something a little simpler
the scientific approach

if your approach is flawed you can not draw any conclusions and yet that's what happened and as the conclusion was in line with the opinion, the fact that it was wobbly was ignored

the other studies were thus carried out by correcting the defects of the first one and led to non arguable but contradictory answers to the first study, we do not speak of philosophy, but once again of sciences and there in more sciences of based

we are right in front of the failure of the truth (the scientific fact) to make the belief do not you think it disturbing?
1 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear the best"
(of me)
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Janic » 13/12/18, 13:19

I think there we are before something a little simpler
the scientific approach
If it were simple, the question would not even arise, for this subject or another. Ahmed likes to point out the real complexity of things that seem simple to many and that he signs with humor "do not believe what I tell you"
So the scientific approach, I'm for since applying (in some aspects) me too.
Now we often confuse approach of some scientists (but not others) in unfortunately too specialized fields, which makes losing the overview of all its aspects.
It is as if, on a spider's web, we took into account only one thread while touching a single thread moves ALL the canvas.
if your approach is flawed you can not draw any conclusions and yet that's what happened and as the conclusion was in line with the opinion, the fact that it was wobbly was ignored
Yes and no ! Laboratory animal farmers know full well that all of them respond differently to biological or chemical demands, just as in a family, a group, an entire society, all do not react like little soldiers to the orders of a any hierarchy. So were Séralini's guinea pigs selected according to certain criteria (such as a particular sensitivity to certain products, which everybody knows about human allergies) and how many other different parameters? In the same way were the contradictory tests made by selection, also, of guinea pigs known as resistant?
This is exactly the same as for vaccinations, that is to say that according to the experimenters such test will be positive and for others negative.
the other studies were thus carried out by correcting the defects of the first one and led to non arguable but contradictory answers to the first study, we do not speak of philosophy, but once again of sciences and there in more sciences of based
This is not so obvious, because it should be that the same parameters were faithfully respected which is almost impossible to do because, whether we recognize it or not, all tests are influenced (as recognized by your article cited ) by prior personal beliefs or worse with the intention of demonstrating that such for right is wrong. This is called a priori, impossible to avoid.
we are right in front of the failure of the truth (the scientific fact) to make the belief do not you think it disturbing?
I always find worrying all those who claim to be right (me included).
I take the example of vaccines and aluminum they contain: the current minister says high and strong that aluminum is safe since 90 years ! She did not find this statement under the hoof of a horse, nor by a divine inspiration, still less by her own experience verified in the laboratory, but also and above all not verified in the population concerned. So, it comes from her services that prepare the speech she reads without even trying to verify its veracity (which would be impossible for him, even with his medical training.)
But this speech comes from his "scientific" advisers in conflict of interest with the manufacturers of this neurotoxic product (scientifically established) such as Prof. Autran who was put in her place by the specialist, a world expert in aluminum who therefore accuses him of ignorance and of what we now call fake news.
So at the highest level of the state, not at the local bistro.
You can understand, then, that the sense of scientific "truth" can be misled by those who are expected of this truth in question.

PS: I am always worried when I see rising to the skies, an abstract principle, as others do for the divine principle, in order to make it a sacred, untouchable truth. At word God of an era has been substituted for the word science with the same fanaticism, the same superstition and the anathemas vociferated by the aficionados of this new religion.
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
User avatar
Exnihiloest
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 5365
Registration: 21/04/15, 17:57
x 660

Re: Monsanto Roundup deadly to humans - Glyphosate




by Exnihiloest » 13/12/18, 19:10

Moindreffor wrote:I think there we are before something a little simpler
the scientific approach

if your approach is flawed you can not draw any conclusions and yet that's what happened and as the conclusion was in line with the opinion, the fact that it was wobbly was ignored

the other studies were thus carried out by correcting the defects of the first one and led to non arguable but contradictory answers to the first study, we do not speak of philosophy, but once again of sciences and there in more sciences of based

we are right in front of the failure of the truth (the scientific fact) to make the belief do not you think it disturbing?

Absolutely. There is also a good synthesis here:
https://quoidansmonassiette.fr/glyphosa ... s-agences/

See in particular the table in the chapter "The largest major American epidemiological study on glyphosate":

The Agricultural Health Study cohort study follows farm workers in Iowa and North Carolina (one of the world's leading epidemiological studies of farmers and pesticides). This study did not identify any links between exposure to glyphosate and an increase in the incidence of cancers overall nor multiple myelomas (RRadj = 2.6 [0.7-9.4]; De Roos et al. 2005), nor with non-Hodgkin lymphoma (Andreotti G et al. 2018). "

FSCJ 2016
Glyphosate is not neurotoxic, nor carcinogenic nor reprotoxic, nor teratogenic nor genotoxic.

BfR 2015
The level of evidence of cancerogenicity of glyphosate for humans based on epidemiological studies is limited.

APVMA 2017
Exposure to glyphosate does not pose any evidence of carcinogenicity or genotoxic hazard to humans.
No convincing epidemiological evidence for a link between glyphosate and cancer risk
At realistic exposure level, animal studies do not show any risk of carcinogenicity.

Health Canada PMRA 2017
Glyphosate is probably not genotoxic and probably does not pose a risk of human cancer.
1 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Garden: landscaping, plants, garden, ponds and pools"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 135 guests