Pressure supported by PER

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SKR
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Pressure supported by PER




by SKR » 10/11/18, 16:28

Hello,

The selected pool water treatment system requires a flow rate of 18 m³ / h distributed between 7 20 mm internal diameter discharge nozzles, nozzles fed by 20 mm ID U-PVC pipes. The water would be at 33 ° C.

18 m³ / h divided by 7 pipes = 2,57 m³ / h per pipe.

In the case where these pipes are inaccessible, because located for example between a wall and the concrete wall of a tiled swimming pool that bears directly against this wall, it is better to avoid inaccessible connections (elbows).

The question is therefore whether it is wise to opt, in this case, for PE pipes (cross-linked polyethylene), in order to take advantage of their flexibility.

The fear is that the PER and end fittings do not support the pressure produced by such a flow in pipes of this diameter.

>> What about?
>> Is there a type of reinforced PER capable of withstanding this pressure?
>> Do you have a better idea?

PS:
The polyethylene (non-crosslinked) and the aluminum constituting the multilayer pipes do not support the dissolved ozone that these pipes convey.

Thank you for your help.

Kind regards.

SKR
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Forhorse
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by Forhorse » 10/11/18, 20:12

even if there is correlation between flow and pressure, the pressure in a circuit can not be higher than what causes the flow.
More concretely: if your pump has a maximum pressure of 10 bars with no flow, no point of the circuit can be more than 10 bars. It is even more the opposite since with non-zero flow, the losses of charges will lower this pressure.
And if a restriction in the circuit increases the flow rate to maintain this flow, the pressure at this restriction will drop (venturi effect) and not increase.
And again, the pressure upstream of this restriction can not be stronger than the pressure that the zero flow pump can provide.
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SKR
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by SKR » 12/11/18, 14:11

Hello Forhorse,
Thank you for your reply.

In view of the pump data (see attached documents), a plumber told us this:
The max pressure is 2,1 bars (less than on a domestic installation).
I suggest installing PER as for the heated floor:
https://www.finimetal.fr/produits/cosyt ... llent5.htm
et
https://www.finimetal.fr/produits/tubes ... sytube.htm

He adds :
The PER is given for 6 bars at 50 ° C.
For a real flow rate of 18 m³ / h, there is no risk with the PER.
But better is the soft PVC outer diameter of 32 mm for nozzles of internal diameter 20 mm.

Questions:
For the same inside diameter, is flexible PVC more or less flexible than PER?
Why is flexible PVC preferable to PER?

Thank you very much.
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Forhorse
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by Forhorse » 12/11/18, 20:54

SKR wrote:Why is flexible PVC preferable to PER?


Ask the plumber who advised you that ...
For me PVC (especially flexible) aged much worse than the PER, but I'm not a plumber.
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by SKR » 12/11/18, 23:52

It's heard.
Goods.
If we options for the PER, to which type of PER should we go: A, B, C, other?
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Gaston
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by Gaston » 13/11/18, 14:12

Forhorse wrote:More concretely: if your pump has a maximum pressure of 10 bars with no flow, no point of the circuit can be more than 10 bars.
This is most likely true in this case, but not in the general case.

If the pump is not at the lowest point of the circuit, it is quite possible to have at the bottom of the circuit a pressure (significantly) higher than that at the pump outlet.
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by SKR » 13/11/18, 14:23

Hello Gaston,
Thank you for your comment.
If the outlet at the end of the pipe is 35 cm lower than the pump, does it make a big difference in pressure?
For example, if the pump gives 2,1 bars, how much pressure would be at the end?
Goods.
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by Gaston » 13/11/18, 18:03

For water, there is 1 bar for 10 meters high, so 35 cm is 0,035 bar more ...

Moreover, my comment is not true for the output of the circuit (in this case, it is the flow that increases), but only in the case where a pipe would go down much lower to go up later (which is generally not done not for a pool).
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SKR
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by SKR » 13/11/18, 21:53

Heard, Gaston. Thank you.
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Re: Pressure supported by the PER




by SKR » 17/11/18, 17:32

Hello to all the team,

According to your opinion, it seems that the PER can satisfy the application recalled below:

The context :
Tiled above ground basin.
Water treatment by an ozonizer with the particularity of sending dissolved ozone in the basin during nocturnal shock ozonation, thus making the water disinfectant without the need for residual chemicals.

Shock ozonization is carried out through 7 nozzles placed at the bottom of the walls, angled nozzles (Ø int 20 mm) whose Karcher effect "licks" the walls, and obtaining this effect requires maximizing the speed of the water in the pipes (internal Ø 20 mm).

These pipes are connected to a nurse, with valves for dosing the flow of each nozzle. The pipes are of different lengths (320, 335, 525, 670, 235, 185 and 340 cm).

Walls: poured concrete 20 cm
Water temperature: 33 ° C
Variable speed pump Zodiac FloPro VS 1,6 cv
Maximum pressure produced by the pump: 2,1 bars
Flow rate: 18 m³ / h divided by 7 pipes = 2,57 m³ / h per pipe, ie 0,714 L / s
Speed ​​in each pipe: 2,27 m / s.

The problem :
In the case where these pipes are inaccessible, because located for example between a wall and the concrete wall of a tiled swimming pool that bears directly against this wall, it is better to avoid inaccessible connections (elbows).

The solution :
It seems advisable to opt, in this case, for pipes in PER, in order to take advantage of their flexibility, because there would thus be compression fittings at the ends (accessible). The PER would be protected by sheaths and, to avoid pinching, the bends should be reinforced (with collars or otherwise?).

It seems that PVC (especially flexible) aged much worse than the PER.
In addition, PEX (PEX) withstands PVC better than dissolved ozone.

See here :
https://www.ozonesolutions.com/info/ozo ... -materials

The question :

What type of PER is the most resistant for such an application?

According to the following table, the HousePEX (MR PEX) PEX-A would be the best:
https://www.houseneeds.com/learning-cen ... on-by-type

The product :
https://www.lkpex.com/en/products/

Brochure:
https://www.lkpex.com/globalassets/lk-p ... -03-09.pdf

What do you think ?

Thank you for your help.

Kind regards.

SKR
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