The death of bees puts the world in danger

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Ahmed » 28/09/18, 21:49

The antagonism between David and Goliath does not stem from a "human nature" which would be very difficult to define (if indeed it exists!), But from the observation that an imbalance of the balance of power gives rise to a conflictual situation. , to the extent that a will to dominate can thus be established. This is no longer true with glyphosate, but it has been, as part of a deliberate strategy to monopolize food seeds and therefore food autonomy on a large scale.
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by to be chafoin » 29/09/18, 00:07

Moindreffor wrote:we agree, but why can not they prove once and for all that it's harmful, it's a mystery to me
In this study scientists prove it or make a move to prove it. After, you can challenge this investigation, as you have the right to challenge any scientific analysis but it must read the article, make arguments based on the elements provided, know the functioning of ecosystems studied ...
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by to be chafoin » 29/09/18, 02:07

There are socio-scientific reasons for the inability to demonstrate the harmfulness of a product: the "myoperxpertise" of which Marcel Bouché speaks means that researchers are so specialized that they cannot understand the multiple physical, chemical and biological interactions. , climatic ... which often act in both directions (with ambivalent retroactive effects, of defense for example) in ecosystems, generally they do not have the training adapted to their knowledge and "functioning". Here, it is not even just the glyphosate molecule, but all the phyto products containing this molecule, with their various adjuvants. And what are the cross effects of these substances with each other and with living organisms (plants, animals, microorganisms ...) but also non-living elements such as soil, air, climatic elements ... are the effects induced in the rest of the food chains ...

However, in passing, if it is complex, it does not lead, at the scientific level, that we can say everything, and all that we say is not worth it. We could also have a scientifically based, rational, ecosystem-based research. Still, it should be based on field surveys and not exclusively laboratory work as is currently the case!

Moreover, most scientific research is now oriented towards an application that could be profitable one day, in connection with private interests. I once met a researcher in the mountains, who told me that he was about to give up his field of research (in ecology) because his laboratory put too much pressure on him to influence his results, his analysis. At a time of austerity measures and economy in the public service, we see that it is increasingly difficult for our organization training and research to stand out from these structures of thought, which are opportunities and finances. How to redirect these efforts towards a search for the common good?

At the beginning of the year, farmers from Lot et Garonne urged our ex-minister of ecology, on posters: "Hulot: water and glyph!". How to set up serious research of a holistic type, when everything conspires (in the sense of breathing together, not in the sense of a conspiracy of a few criminals) towards the development of "easy" spreading for "modern" production ", that is to say of massive type, of poor quality, on almost dead soils ...

Let's finish this blackboard, remembering that there are many scientific studies (differentiated) that have described the negative effects of herbicides containing glyph on soil, plants, animals, health.
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Moindreffor » 29/09/18, 09:34

I think we are moving in the wrong direction
Glyphosate is the tree that hides the forest, as long as we talk about it we do not talk about the real problems
it is not water and glypho that must be given to farmers, it is the right to sell their products at a price that allows them to live, and no longer to make a mad rush for investment and productivity to survive

and there we do not fight against Mosento but against our agricultural policy, my cousin does not say more farmer but bounty hunter
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Moindreffor » 29/09/18, 09:45

Ahmed wrote:The antagonism between David and Goliath does not stem from a "human nature" which would be very difficult to define (if indeed it exists!), But from the observation that an imbalance of the balance of power gives rise to a conflictual situation. , to the extent that a will to dominate can thus be established. This is no longer true with glyphosate, but it has been, as part of a deliberate strategy to monopolize food seeds and therefore food autonomy on a large scale.


what I meant was that we like to tackle bigger than we are, simply because we do not accept the success of others with respect to their non-personal success, (I do not speak failure)

if you go there, any product can have harmful effects, drink too much water is harmful to health, worse drink pure water is even more

personally I do not like fighting against this or that thing or idea, I prefer to develop something else and leave the choice ...

a researcher must live, and so he seeks above all funding, as a lawyer seeks customers, they sometimes fall in simplicity ... after everyone sees the harm in relation to the camp he chooses
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Ahmed » 29/09/18, 10:21

I understood what you wanted to say, but I do not share this psychologizing analysis: it is not by a kind of jealousy (mimetic rivalry would be fairer) that the recriminations of the "little ones" against the "big" arise. , but because of a power which is exerted unilaterally and without counterweight. It is a political fact in the strict sense (and not that of political politics) and this reaction seems healthy and justified to me.

However, I do agree that often the choice of targets is emotional, for example bees enjoy a sympathetic image *, while bumblebees which play an important role in the ecosystem and which also suffer from "innovations" its purely and simply
ignored.

* Because of a human ego that takes more consideration to what is directly useful or enjoyable (honey).
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Moindreffor » 29/09/18, 11:10

Ahmed wrote:I understood what you wanted to say, but I do not share this psychologizing analysis: it is not by a kind of jealousy (mimetic rivalry would be fairer) that the recriminations of the "little ones" against the "big" arise. , but because of a power which is exerted unilaterally and without counterweight. It is a political fact in the strict sense (and not that of political politics) and this reaction seems healthy and justified to me.

However, I do agree that often the choice of targets is emotional, for example bees enjoy a sympathetic image *, while bumblebees which play an important role in the ecosystem and which also suffer from "innovations" its purely and simply
ignored.

* Because of a human ego that takes more consideration to what is directly useful or enjoyable (honey).

if you want, I agree, all power gives birth to its counter-power, political power, economic, the list is long and yes we focus on the bees, because there is an economy there too ...

and designating a culprit is often easier than finding it, and with the net, the public square has become very large and accessible to all
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Ahmed » 29/09/18, 11:50

Personally, I am careful not to designate one or more culprits: these companies do what they are designed for and are not free from their operation (only choices inside of this systemic framework) and this is also why I do not absolutely trust them on other criteria that should be worn by all concerned (all, in truth!).
But, what you call a counter-power is in reality only a desire for a counter-power *, hence the exasperation of many and certain not very rational judgments, in particular of a moral nature. It must be recognized that on this last point, large firms willingly lend themselves to criticism by claiming saving "missions" far removed from reality ...

* I am speaking here of course of citizens and not of governments who in no way constitute counter-powers to the economic powers on which they depend.
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by Moindreffor » 29/09/18, 13:48

Ahmed wrote:Personally, I am careful not to designate one or more culprits: these companies do what they are designed for and are not free from their operation (only choices inside of this systemic framework) and this is also why I do not absolutely trust them on other criteria that should be worn by all concerned (all, in truth!).
But, what you call a counter-power is in reality only a desire for a counter-power *, hence the exasperation of many and certain not very rational judgments, in particular of a moral nature. It must be recognized that on this last point, large firms willingly lend themselves to criticism by claiming saving "missions" far removed from reality ...

* I am speaking here of course of citizens and not of governments who in no way constitute counter-powers to the economic powers on which they depend.

we agree
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Re: The death of bees puts the planet in danger




by izentrop » 16/10/18, 15:18

... we imagine less that these same domestic bees can represent a danger for other pollinating insects or even for the plants they forage!

The so-called domestic bees, the best known, are those that produce honey. Their scientific name is Apis mellifera for western honey bees, and Apis cerana for oriental honeybees. Apis mellifera have a primary role in our economy. On their own, they occupy the first place in terms of production with 81 million hives for 1,6 million tons of honey per year.

Wild bees, meanwhile, encompass nearly 1.000 species in France, including species of solitary drones, moths or hoverflies. In total, there are about 20.000 species of bees in the world. Unlike honey bees, wild pollinators do not make honey and therefore do not represent a major economic interest. As a result, they are much less protected than Apis mellifera.

Yet they play a leading role in our ecosystem. More than 80% of flowering plants depend on these wild insects; honey bees providing only 15% of pollination. Thus, wild bees guarantee the yield of nearly 75% of agricultural crops, a rent of 265 billions of dollars per year worldwide.

Towards extinction of wild bees

Today, initiatives for bees suggest that humans have been able to preserve the species, but that is not to mention the lack of differentiation between these two categories of pollinators. The number of wild bees continues to decline at an alarming rate: 50% of all European bee species are threatened with extinction. https://www.consoglobe.com/abeilles-dom ... sources-cg
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