37 Lazy Vegetable Seed

[mca37]

Hello,

I present you the space that we rent for the kitchen garden.
This is a plot of 200 m2 located in a set of allotment gardens. These gardens were created on old swamps. This parcel was cultivated until November 2017 with: tiller / fertilizer / pesticides ... horse manure there is 2 or 3 years old. The crops were potatoes and beans (together or not I do not know) from the information from neighbors. There are fruit trees: plum, fig, pear and a vine and cabanon, a space for vegetables about 140 m2 I think.

Before our arrival our neighbor had weeded twice with the weed killer . Had survived: horsetail, bindweed (fields and hedgerows), and chickweed.

A first observation of the soil indicates to us that it is clay-silt, acid, packed, destructured and saturated in nitrogen, its capacity of retention of the water is good.

Our first actions were: to remove the horsetails, break the superficial crust, sow and plant.

A space has been planted with a mixture of mellifers to cover the ground and feed its fauna, another of cucurbitaceous to cover the ground, a part remained 'naked' waiting for time to cultivate it, it also allows us to to know the weeds that grow in this soil, the rest is cultivated for the moment but waiting to be covered.
Today other weeds point the end of their leaves: goosefoot, grasses, asteraceae ...

I saw hay sales ads on a known and nearby website. These are mostly hay for animals mowed in June. Given the acidity of the soil, its nitrogen saturation, is it better to put hay or straw? and is it the right time to put one or the other?

[Did67]

What makes you say that it is saturated with nitrogen ??? A priori, I don't think so, even if a wasteland is still "rich" (fertility has been restored or is in the process of being restored).

Nitrogen is normally leached out and "naturally", without human action, we tend towards a balance which is rather a vegetable garden soil that we will consider as "poor" or "poorly provided" (with regard to "requirements" of vegetables, if we want a "significant" productivity).

The nitrophilous plants, indicative of nitrogen saturation, are nettles. Also the aygopoda, the garlic of the bears, the cleavers, ...

The cucurbits are quite demanding and their exuberance will inform you. If they exceed everything, are dark green, so yes, it may be that nitrogen has accumulated.

Knowing that a fallow land that is cleared is still quite rich 2 or 3 first years, by mineralization of everything that was there.

Do the parameters you give (clayey-silt, acid, ...) result from soil analyzes (in your plot or neighboring plots) ??? Because you do not mention other typical "acidophiles" in a humid environment than horsetail: ferns, ...

My belief, but this is not a religion, is that hay has all the benefits of straw, without its main flaw, "nitrogen hunger". It nourishes soil organisms much better ... because it is more balanced. Its main flaw: it can be difficult to find / route it. And then, you have to support the sneers of neighbors, generally unconvinced (euphemism) at first! But not necessarily good agronomists. Sometimes religiously "followers" of "methods"!

[mca37]

An error on my part is sandy loam and not loamy, although there is silt, proportional side I do not know, simple tests done modeling of the earth, and deposit. It is an old market garden and flooded by the Loire which brought silt converts for several decades in allotment gardens.

Side weeds we see emerge now in addition to bindweed, horsetail, grasses and asteraceae: chenopodium, amaranth, and purslane. All edible but of bad reputation with our neighbors ... and I must recognize invasive even if for now we appreciate the cover and protection of the soil that it generates.

Questions, beginner, many arise ...
Cucurbitaceae side (zucchini, potimarrons, buternut): despite the heat / drought and the fact that we do not water, they flourish widely. Begins to appear powdery mildew I think (whitish, porous, round spots that gradually cover the whole leaf, makes it turn yellow). If I understand correctly this is a mushroom, which needs spores, a minimum temperature (largely reached I think at the moment ...) and moisture or water to grow. It has been several days now that we do not water (according to the state of the leaves, the development of the plants, it seems useless) in spite of the heat. So what moisture / water would it come from? of the ground ? What are the conditions for the development of powdery mildew (if it is it), the same at a temperature close to that of mildew? How to limit the spread of powdery mildew without using various fungicides? Having sown late, these plants are in the process of flowering / fruit formation. Could this compromise the crops?

We have two long non-runner zucchini plants growing side by side and notice: one has more leaves, bigger and more male flowers in proportion on the foot and the other foot, the other has more flowers females and zucchini;) although more puny in appearance (fewer leaves). These are plans of the same variety, sown on the same day, with less than a meter of distance between the plants. Is it a coincidence or when several plants are thus side by side with each other they "specialize"?

A question (not questions ...) for strawberries ... You talk about straws with BRF rather than hay, an exception. If I followed, the BRF is particularly rich in nutrients, from live wood, cut after leaf drop and then crushed. You use the BRF because strawberries are descendants of wild strawberries and this brings them a food closer to their initial living conditions than hay. In the forest for me, it is the leaves and the dead branches that reach the ground, I suppose (without going to check), that there is little living wood that reaches the ground. Therefore, why put BRF rather than twigs, branches and dead leaves? Although I understand that the BRF is richer in nutrients, it seems to me to be somehow further away from the original environment. So is this choice due to the fact that in a kitchen garden the fauna / flora of the soil is different and more able and effective to quickly make the nutrients coming from BRF than twigs / dead leaves less rich? A need to feed the soil, its inhabitants and therefore the plants more quickly? A question of quantity to bring (I suppose that to bring as much as BRF would require more materials, or even that it is impossible to bring as much with these materials)? A choice due to ease of supply (size and reuse of fruit tree cuttings)?

[mosw]

Just for information: I have a plot in the same place and it is the second year that I cover most of hay.
The PH of the bare earth is 7.0. Under the hay, he descended to 5.0.

[mca37]

Hello Mosw,

In Tours and around there are many places of allotment gardens. Do you agree to specify where yours is? Ours is on the side of La Riche.
I also take advantage of it for other questions Where do you find enough hay and how do you get it into the gardens? How did you evaluate the pH (precise analyzes in the lab?)

[Did67]

Just for information: I have a plot in the same place and it is the second year that I cover most of hay.
The PH of the bare earth is 7.0. Under the hay, he descended to 5.0.

Amazing.

To dig.

Have you taken the soil well, and not the top layer of decaying organic matter?

[Did67]

Side weeds we see emerge now in addition to bindweed, horsetail, grasses and asteraceae: chenopodium, amaranth, and purslane. All edible but of bad reputation with our neighbors ... and I must recognize invasive even if for now we appreciate the cover and protection of the soil that it generates.

Questions, beginner, many arise ...
Cucurbitaceae side (zucchini, potimarrons, buternut): despite the heat / drought and the fact that we do not water, they flourish widely. Begins to appear powdery mildew I think (whitish, porous, round spots that gradually cover the whole leaf, makes it turn yellow). If I understand correctly this is a mushroom, which needs spores, a minimum temperature (largely reached I think at the moment ...) and moisture or water to grow. It has been several days now that we do not water (according to the state of the leaves, the development of the plants, it seems useless) in spite of the heat. So what moisture / water would it come from? of the ground ? What are the conditions for the development of powdery mildew (if it is it), the same at a temperature close to that of mildew? How to limit the spread of powdery mildew without using various fungicides? Having sown late, these plants are in the process of flowering / fruit formation. Could this compromise the crops?

We have two long non-runner zucchini plants growing side by side and notice: one has more leaves, bigger and more male flowers in proportion on the foot and the other foot, the other has more flowers females and zucchini;) although more puny in appearance (fewer leaves). These are plans of the same variety, sown on the same day, with less than a meter of distance between the plants. Is it a coincidence or when several plants are thus side by side with each other they "specialize"?

A question (not questions ...) for strawberries ... You talk about straws with BRF rather than hay, an exception. If I followed, the BRF is particularly rich in nutrients, from live wood, cut after leaf drop and then crushed. You use the BRF because strawberries are descendants of wild strawberries and this brings them a food closer to their initial living conditions than hay. In the forest for me, it is the leaves and the dead branches that reach the ground, I suppose (without going to check), that there is little living wood that reaches the ground. Therefore, why put BRF rather than twigs, branches and dead leaves? Although I understand that the BRF is richer in nutrients, it seems to me to be somehow further away from the original environment. So is this choice due to the fact that in a kitchen garden the fauna / flora of the soil is different and more able and effective to quickly make the nutrients coming from BRF than twigs / dead leaves less rich? A need to feed the soil, its inhabitants and therefore the plants more quickly? A question of quantity to bring (I suppose that to bring as much as BRF would require more materials, or even that it is impossible to bring as much with these materials)? A choice due to ease of supply (size and reuse of fruit tree cuttings)?

Raise me soon.

I'm doing some messages tonight sitting on the floor with a non-french keyboard ...

[mca37]

Thank you Didier for taking the time to read and respond despite the conditions.

Cucurbitaceous side they continue to flourish despite powdery mildew (?), Without treatment or water intake. The zucchini continue to provide (finally for long as the foot of rounds ... after 4 beautiful zucchini, seems to want to take a break ...). The potimarrons formed gradually take on their orange or green color according to their variety, and we continue to redirect the stems of these runners towards the interior of the garden to avoid invading the neighbors;) The production seems indifferent to the presence of mushrooms. on the leaves and even the stems that continue to grow. Which answers some of my questions on this subject. Like what sometimes it is enough to wait and observe ...

I will give you the questions after the permaculture meetings.

[phil53]

Regarding pumpkins, a remark at home in the 44, my feet run freely. When they arrive in the tall grass they do not produce fruit. A foot has arrived at the level of the brambles and climbed to 50cm 2 big fruits have formed. About 2kg each.
Does it mean that turf is needed to produce on the 3m that run in the grass?

[Did67]

Here, a good observation.

The first thing I will try is to make them climb: 3 poles in "Indian tent"; a strong wire mesh such as those we put in concrete slabs ????

Maybe the climbing alters the hormone flows and this "unblocks" flowering / fruiting. Just an idea ...