Le Potager du Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by to be chafoin » 23/07/18, 00:24

Yes it is that (publication 2018) which I have already shown the cover.
9782812615108.jpg
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I just finished it ... I'll talk about it as soon as I have time ..
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 23/07/18, 08:36

Yes, now it's coming back to me ...

Just tell me if it's worth it or if it's a crust ... I'm going to buy some books in the next few days.

[This is typical of the functioning of my brain right now: there are things that I have seen, sometimes read, of which I have no memory, to the point of sometimes denying a fact, before I realize, later, that indeed ... My wife is used ... I do not know if it is the consequence of the infarction, or a beginning of Alzheimer, or simply a brain overbooked or an absence of deep attention to the moment t at the thing ... Probably a little all that at once?]
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 23/07/18, 08:46

Did67 wrote:
Let's assume 30 cm (all theoretical). That is, per m², 1 / 3 of m3 of soil.

An order of magnitude of apparent density of a dry soil is 1,3 (it varies from 1 to 1,6 for mineral soils).

So we are at 0,3 * 1,3 t = 2 tons per m².




"Pan on the beak!" [according to Duck's formula - the newspaper - when he has to correct something he has published]

You were right to surprise you !!!!!!!!

We were at 0,3 m3 of ground. With an "average" density of 1,3.

And so 0,3 m3 * 1,3 t / m3 = 0,4 tonnes either 400 kg.

And so that makes a contribution of 35 g of P205, so 35 / 2,3 g of P = about 15 g of P (unchanged)

In about 400 kg of soil (so 5 times less)

So 15 000 mg of P / 400 kg of soil = 35 mg of P / kg of soil (5 times pus).

The "limits" in biology are never square. These are "bell" curves ... It is not at 79 mg no effect, at 80 mg a maximum effect.

I think that 35 is starting to have an effect ...

Especially if we now consider only 15 cm of soil (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorrhization is established at the start; if we consider that a market gardener easily provides 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are a few "pieces" of manure here and there; nothing to do with the "continuous layers of manure)" used by a market gardener, we see that we can quickly reach the limit ...
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Julienmos » 23/07/18, 13:44

small intermission

the 14, 15 and 16 September 2018, the BiObernai show with (among others) guess who? :)

I hope this time to go!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 23/07/18, 14:49

A conference at the LPO party in Der is also confirmed, the 28 October (Lake Der-Chantecoq, near St Dizier).

I will also be in Champagné, near Poitiers, for the National 24 Permaculture Meetings at 26 August (sequence of 3 conferences): https://reporterre.net/Les-Rencontres-N ... lture-2018

For our friends in the West, negotiations going on for a visit to St-Brieuc! This is not confirmed.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by to be chafoin » 23/07/18, 17:20

Did67 wrote:So 15 mg of P / 000 kg of soil = 400 mg of P / kg of soil (35 times more). The "limits" in biology are never square. These are "bell" curves ... It is not at 5 mg no effect, at 79 mg a maximum effect. I think that at 80, we start to have an effect ...
Especially if we now consider only 15 cm of soil (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorrhization is established at the start; if we consider that a market gardener easily provides 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are a few "pieces" of manure here and there; nothing to do with the "continuous layers of manure)" used by a market gardener, we see that we can quickly reach the limit ...
Yes that's exactly what I was thinking. Especially since, at the end of the book, Lowenfels reports that "some believe that phosphorus levels must be even lower, around 30 ppm" (p.149) (instead of 70 ppm rather admitted)! In any case, this question of phosphorus comes up several times throughout the book (in research on agriculture, horticulture or hydroponics for example, but also mentioned about compost too rich in P) ...
Just for that I think this book could interest the phenocultors. The remarks you made about the author are rather true and maybe you will discover some inconsistencies. For my part I found the book rather rich despite rehearsals and I enjoyed the first part which is a biological description well illustrated mushrooms and mycohrizian relationship. In addition, the fact that Lowenfels is a journalist (it seems that he is still well on the subject and he has friends or researchers who put their hands in the ground) and what is more, of Anglo-Saxon culture, gives the delivers a more pragmatic aspect, complementary to the Sélosse conferences (which I also appreciated).
Go on another passage that surprised me to whet your appetite: there is a part of the book that talks about agricultural practices that can have a negative impact on crops. The first thing mentioned (before fallow, soil alterations, chemicals, fertilizers, burning and the use of GMOs) is: crop rotation. Thus, contrary to the practices traditionally put forward in organic gardening, where it is regularly advised to rotate and vary crops, it would seem that this could have "significant effects on the arbuscular mycohrizian fungi that can survive". ..
It seems to me that it goes a little (indirectly) in the sense of some of your choices (maybe I heard something rather in your videos?) ...
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 23/07/18, 18:58

1) That we do not really know is the common lot of agronomists, living things being complex, relationships that are not simply binary and research "in vitro" (in pots) not easy to transpose (which is what Sélosse is right; nevertheless , and there I think that he did not come out of his tower, one is obliged to "allow oneself to think ...", otherwise one becomes motionless or one leaves all the field to those who affirm, without asking of questions, which we have always plowed, that by bringing dead wood we "sow" mycorrhizae, that vegetables grow better under trees, etc ...).

2) There is therefore necessarily "interpretation" and "conviction", as soon as we take action ...

3) There are good journalists - and if I'm not mistaken, Lowenfels is a fairly advanced amateur gardener ...

Even if on the pH, he or his friend, did not understand anything.

[François Lenglet, who has gained some notoriety on economic issues, is not an economist at all!]

4) ... which means nothing, since millions of market gardeners favor composting or grelinette or Bordeaux mixture!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by to be chafoin » 23/07/18, 19:25

Did67 wrote:Even if on the pH, he or his friend, did not understand anything.
Why, what did he say?
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by to be chafoin » 23/07/18, 19:30

Did67 wrote:4) ... which means nothing, since millions of market gardeners favor composting or grelinette or Bordeaux mixture!
Here I may have expressed myself poorly: what I meant was that Lowenfels, unlike people who advocate rotations, would rather avoid rotations!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 23/07/18, 22:10

No, I understood correctly.

My remark was general: one can be presented as being a "good gardener" and yet one can wonder. I cited these examples ...

Rotations may be detrimental to mycorrhization. I do not know if it's a conviction or if there are test results.

Specific diseases (those that affect a species or a family) pose other problems, in the absence of rotation. So we should not just consider one factor ...

Moreover, I did not observe negative effects following a rotation, compared to a repetition of the same culture in the same place ...

It seems likely that mycorrhizal fungi form forms of resistance, as do other families of microorganisms: when a legume is implanted after several years, it forms nodules. On the other hand, when introducing a new species into an area where it has never been cultivated, it is better to inoculate ...

On the other hand, what is clear is that the absence of rotation leads, in the majority of crops (with the exception of corn, or tomato, and without a few others that I do not know ...), to an immediate drop in yields "all other things being equal". Wheat on wheat sees its yield drop from ten to twenty%. And a straw cereal will not succeed another straw cereal ...

https://www.perspectives-agricoles.com/ ... 402639.pdf

So if it's an opinion, I think it's baseless.

If there are tests that prove it, I would like to know them.
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