Ideal heating ...

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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chatelot16
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by chatelot16 » 25/05/18, 12:48

the condensation and solidification of the water brings calorie ... the temperature of the exchanger descends less when there is moisture than when it is dry

the default of pac a current air is to have a small exchanger with fin too fine which are stopped by the ice: to defrost it must be completely melted so completely lose the calorie she had given

my solution is to use as an external exchanger a large wall surface with steel cladding: the ice can be formed with a certain thickness without reducing efficiency ... when it must defrost because there is too thick it just heat up a little so that the ice layer comes off and falls to the ground: no need to melt it: if it is cold for a long time it forms a pile of ice at the bottom of the wall

at certain times of the year it is simply the sun that will defrost ... but the sun is defrosting by melting all the ice ... it may be better to take off the ice in the morning by inverting the heat pump for some minute, and then enjoy the heat of the sun that will heat the exchanger more usefully than to melt ice
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Gaston
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by Gaston » 25/05/18, 13:40

chatelot16 wrote:my solution is to use as an outdoor exchanger a large wall surface with sheet metal cladding: the ice can be formed with a certain thickness without reducing the efficiency ...
We enter the "tailor-made" solution with a more substantial investment.
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by chatelot16 » 25/05/18, 19:04

when we buy a heat pump air / air we have a trick at minimum price, and impossible repair to the first problem

what I would like is to be able to buy compressor exchangers and make a montage whose lifespan is limited because all the elements are commercially available ... it does not matter if it costs more, we have for its money

the regulations on refrigerant gases can be bypassed using R290 which is simply propane! so we can fill installation without problem ... the only constraint is that we can not circulate propane everywhere, it is absolutely necessary to make a heat pump water / water to limit the gas circuit

the heat pump air / air has another problem: it is very difficult to measure the heat produced ... so we can not check the actual cop ... and the cop promised by the manufacturer is like all promises , it only binds him who believes in it

with a heat pump water / water can measure the result with a heat meter ... it remains the lamentable problem of the heat meter available in France much too expensive ... the French trade does not like that one measure ! all measuring equipment must be very expensive to prevent users from measuring too much, which would prevent them from rolling in circles ...
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Bardal
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by Bardal » 25/05/18, 19:06

Gaston wrote:
bardal wrote:you can do most of the installation, with the only operation by a refrigeration engineer,
Still need to find a refrigeration company who agrees to come and connect an installation that he did not sell ... :(
It's a good option if you have a friend ...

bardal wrote:No annual maintenance apart from dusting done by you. It is without competition in heating.
I am a little more mixed than you with respect to the PAC because we do not have a very good visibility on the service life after the warranty period ... and bad examples of irreparable models after 4 or 5 years.


The installation of a pac air-air, it is essentially to drill a wall and to fix chutes; all internet discounters provide the refrigeration machine with the machine running, for a fixed price of about 150 € (the complete installation is rather to 800 €).

There are brands specialized in repetitive breakdowns and rapid obsolescence; but by typing in famous Japanese brands (Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Panasonic ...), reliability is the same as that of a fridge ...

As for icing problems, it's useless to make a mountain of it; for a quality pac, the de-icing algorithms are effective and the impact on the conso of a season is of the order of 1%, that is to say negligible; it should be noted that it is not by -10 ° that this icing is important (at these temperatures, the air contains only very little water vapor), but rather between 0 and 5 ° C, when the water condenses on the evaporator and freezes; it represents very little on a season ...

The idea of ​​chatelot flat surface is certainly interesting, but the flat surface equivalent to a highly ventilated evaporator must surely be prohibitive; and we are entering the field of hand-crafting, which is less reliable than mass-produced products.
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Bardal
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by Bardal » 25/05/18, 19:24

chatelot16 wrote:when we buy a heat pump air / air we have a trick at minimum price, and impossible repair to the first problem

what I would like is to be able to buy compressor exchangers and make a montage whose lifespan is limited because all the elements are commercially available ... it does not matter if it costs more, we have for its money

the regulations on refrigerant gases can be bypassed using R290 which is simply propane! so we can fill installation without problem ... the only constraint is that we can not circulate propane everywhere, it is absolutely necessary to make a heat pump water / water to limit the gas circuit

the heat pump air / air has another problem: it is very difficult to measure the heat produced ... so we can not check the actual cop ... and the cop promised by the manufacturer is like all promises , it only binds him who believes in it

with a heat pump water / water can measure the result with a heat meter ... it remains the lamentable problem of the heat meter available in France much too expensive ... the French trade does not like that one measure ! all measuring equipment must be very expensive to prevent users from measuring too much, which would prevent them from rolling in circles ...


Some air-air pac are cheap products; others not; we also find cheap rp rr at high price ...

Compressors and exchangers are quite available in the market; but not necessarily the methods to mount and regulate them optimally (which is essential on such machines). Contrary to what one might think, mass production and design can be of much better quality than "custom" manufacture; most refrigeration engineers have abandoned the construction of personalized installations in favor of industrialized equipment, correctly installed.


The regulation on refrigeration installations cannot be legally circumvented (even with the use of propane or CO2); that said, just because there is a "stop" sign doesn't mean that everyone respects it ...


Finally, there is an official certification body for PAC, dependent on CSTB; it is called Certita and can be consulted by everyone; the figures that are guaranteed are not those of the manufacturers, but those really measured by an independent and heavily equipped organization.


nb propane is one of the refrigerant fluids commonly used in professional installations, including and especially in pacs that are not water-water; its only drawback is that in case of leakage, it is explosive (but finally ... with a gas stove too) ...
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by urok » 25/05/18, 22:51

I agree a little with the latest statements.
As soon as it is cold, the COP of a PAC decreases and does not become so interesting anymore. And I'm not going to throw myself into a floor heating, so that the COP falls less, the costs are too important for the coup. I also agree that the circuits may freeze.
In short, I am not well motivated for a CAP. For me, it's good for cities in the south of France, where winter is not rigorous.
The only interest I see is in reversibility but in this case, is the power consumption the same as in heating mode? Or is it just an air conditioning?
The wood attracts me even more than I already have a stove in my home, but, actually the insurmountable constraint (when one is at work), it is to leave the fire lit: impossible. So, pellets?
And no one mentioned the electric storage heaters? We are surely far from the grids of a certain era but will they actually be excluded from the next RT? a confirmation ? If so, does this mean that they are not at the level of consumption of a PAC for example? In short, thank you for your testimonials.
To read
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by Bardal » 26/05/18, 04:22

urok wrote:I agree a little with the latest statements.
As soon as it is cold, the COP of a PAC decreases and does not become so interesting anymore. And I'm not going to throw myself into a floor heating, so that the COP falls less, the costs are too important for the coup. I also agree that the circuits may freeze.
In short, I am not well motivated for a CAP. For me, it's good for cities in the south of France, where winter is not rigorous.
The only interest I see is in reversibility but in this case, is the power consumption the same as in heating mode? Or is it just an air conditioning?
The wood attracts me even more than I already have a stove in my home, but, actually the insurmountable constraint (when one is at work), it is to leave the fire lit: impossible. So, pellets?
And no one mentioned the electric storage heaters? We are surely far from the grids of a certain era but will they actually be excluded from the next RT? a confirmation ? If so, does this mean that they are not at the level of consumption of a PAC for example? In short, thank you for your testimonials.
To read


The cop of a pac actually decreases with the temperature of the cold source; however, at -15 ° C (which does not happen every day), the last-generation pacs still have a higher copy than 2, which means they consume half as much as a production convector equal; and the SCOP (average cop on the heating season) is about 4 ...


Electric storage heaters consume exactly the same number of kWh as a conventional electric heater; the economy is zero. Their only interest is to consume kWh at the "night" rate, ie a little less expensive; under current economic conditions, their interest is zero, especially since they require an increase in the power of the connection, which negates the very modest gain linked to the "night" tariff ...
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chatelot16
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by chatelot16 » 26/05/18, 09:21

electric heater with accumulation? the advantage of enjoying the night rate is ridiculous: forget!

heated floor is not that expensive if it's done in construction: it takes a lot of concrete to do the floor, put some pipe does not cost much more

the heated floor can also be used for a condensing boiler ... to pass the hot water first in the radiator of the existing part of the house and then the radiator outlet in the heated floor, to give the boiler of the water at a minimum temperature and allow a good condensation

otherwise the heat pump air air cheapest possible is not so bad that it ... even in very cold the cop never goes below 1 so it's always better than an electric radiator ... and we console ourselves for the limited life of the low price

we can also do the 2: a simple wood heating that we feed when we can and a heat pump air air that takes over when we no longer feed the fire and the temperature drops
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by urok » 26/05/18, 19:17

chatelot16 wrote:floor heating is not that expensive if it's done at construction


I know this technology, my house is equipped with a gas condensing boiler but I had a lot of problems with it, so I prefer to avoid ...
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Bardal
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Re: Ideal heating ...




by Bardal » 26/05/18, 19:30

urok wrote:
chatelot16 wrote:floor heating is not that expensive if it's done at construction


I know this technology, my house is equipped with a gas condensing boiler but I had a lot of problems with it, so I prefer to avoid ...


Yeah ... Well ... The technology of heated floors (by the way very simple) is now well known and well controlled; I have one since 1979, and I have never had the shade of a boredom; however, its maintenance was zero (I do not boast, it's laziness).

In fact, in construction, a pc is on average in the same price range as a network of radiators ...


Incidentally, my first pac (water-water) lasted 21 years; the second (always water-water) begins its 19 year without the shadow of a glitch; and my little pac air-air used as the sole means of heating in my house Breton approaches 10 years, without problem, and hopes to continue as much ...
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