A vegetable meadow?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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to be chafoin
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A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 21/05/18, 11:44

Hello everybody

I cultivate a small organic garden since about 5 years, evolving little by little towards a more permanent culture, a soil more alive and less soil working. Also, the arguments and the calm-flamboyant style of Didier Helmstetter inspired me this year to integrate in a more uninhibited way what could turn out to be the treasure (or the nightmare!) Near which my transatbed slept: the natural meadow that is the surrounding setting of this vegetable garden.

2018-05-09 15.55.48.jpg
"my" vegetable meadow

I come immediately to the subject: How not to "spoil" a meadow?

I am trying to replace the fertilization of the previous years (manure = dirty, stinking, too much effort for transport, composting = composting experience in bunch on site tedious and unconvincing, handling and transport from home complicated - I specify that I do not live on the spot - + the arguments of Didier) by a plant fertilization without fermentation. I understood that I had to bring more biomass to my soil thanks to the green manures that I have been growing since last year on my vegetable garden and the hay that I make myself from the adjacent meadow. my cultures. In the photo we can see some windrows that are still to dry in the meadow, and the heart of the kitchen garden behind artificial hedges, in a semicircle.

How to "manage" a meadow in order to fertilize a vegetable garden yourself?
In particular, I wonder what is the ratio between the area of ​​meadow needed to significantly and sustainably improve the life and quality of the garden soil and the area of ​​this garden. I guess it's a little or very relative but still, what is the order of magnitude? In the photo we can guess that the surrounding meadow is about 4 5 times the area of ​​the kitchen garden (knowing that my garden is landscaped in flowerbeds so you need to count without the aisles), does this seem sufficient? This estimate could guide an olibrius interested in this perspective and who would like to start a new vegetable garden on a meadow ...

Is it a gain of laziness?
It's not sure. Of course, haymaking is a job, especially when you do everything "old-fashioned" like me, that is to say with simply a rake (I took advantage of the "mowing" of the owner who "maintains" his land -see below-; a scythe would not seem insurmountable to me on such an area, especially since it could be considered in relation to the needs of ground cover and the climatic weather). It still seems to me a gain of effort for a lonely or lonely person or who has back pain or who does not necessarily want to heave behind big wheels (!). This is apparently not a time-saver in the lounger, although that remains to be seen, I only discover the technique by groping and naturally doing bullshit. Still, with this new approach and the time saved by not working the soil, I was able to protect and feed almost all of my plots and enlarge my vegetable garden by opening new flowerbeds (we can see the one of them between 4 stakes in the foreground of the photo) ...

Besides, what does it take to have a good hay? and a good hay of phenoculture?
I had started mowing before heading (early April). Should we focus on this period as it seems a recommendation from farmers who produce commercial hay for cattle and sheep, or follow Didier's advice: as late as possible? Then the meadow was mowed with a "self-propelled" self-propelled by the owner during heading (April), period recommended for the hay of the horses. So it is a kind of mowed hay that I dried and turned in windrows. But what color must the hay have? should it stay a little green, or should it wait until it turns yellow or whitens in the sun? Can poorly produced hay (a little rotten for example) have negative effects on my soil? Could we imagine a specific hay, "calibrated" to level our soil organisms (particularly for anecic worms whose importance we know thanks to Didier and Marcel Bouché) as we calibrate the hay according to the cattle that will feed on it? (cattle, sheep / horses / rabbits)?

Can we imagine an "eco-systemic" improvement?
I deposited my hay in "thick layers" on the flower beds, starting to cultivate potatoes which have come out now (except those that I had placed directly on the meadow and under the hay). Can we imagine a meadow cultivation as close as possible to the cultivation of a vegetable garden, a new association of which there is no name - I am speaking under your control -, a kind of vegetable garden like the " garden-forest "(a concept in which I know Didier does not believe) or agroforestry?
And in the other direction, what is the impact of these withdrawals on the meadow itself (or even on more or less close ecosystems)? If I take this energy away from it, won't it degrade little by little? What is the cycle of a meadow? Basically, far from announcing any revolution, I wonder if this effort is worth it and if it would not be better to leave the management of this hay to specialists (as usual!) ... If it was worth it hardly, other questions (which join classic questions for a vegetable garden) come: how to best organize the space and the alternation of meadow / vegetable garden, sparse in flower beds (my choice for the vegetable garden), concentrated (vegetable garden in center and meadow around), or even "itinerant" in order to stimulate the living cyclically on the whole land? If you make the hay yourself, you don't have to roll it ... What will best benefit my vegetables, living organisms, the soil of the entire area and the ecosystem ?
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by denis17 » 21/05/18, 17:01

There are many questions.
A priori, from what I read on the forum main, you have to count 3 X more hay surface than the surface to cover, so for this case, you are in the nails.
Then, with regard to hay cutting, there are several options available to you, to make 2 mows, one in June, then the new one in September (at sight of the nose), only one late mowing.
Personally, I will look for the second solution, because most of the seeds will naturally return what will participate in the maintenance of your meadow, limit the work (A cut instead of 2), and finally wait for the drying of the hay in a few weeks and set it up for the next year, just one manipulation too.
As for hay, a good brushcutter should be enough, it will only return from time to time for a good drying, and put in place in good condition because it will be very ventilated. Set up in the fall, which seems to me the most favorable period.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 21/05/18, 20:29

for hay, a late cut would be best, 3 4 times the surface of the kitchen garden is good
you grow green manures it's good, so put the hay later after mowing the green manure around February, March, the hay over and you can plant onion, shallot, garlic at the same time,
the garden in the center as it is there is not bad, you can win on the meadow by putting hay in November and transplanting in May June squash, or pumpkins
so you have enough to be self-sufficient, awesome
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 21/05/18, 20:52

to be chafoin wrote:I am trying to replace the fertilization of the previous years (manure = dirty, stinking, too much effort for transport, composting = composting experience in bunch on site tedious and unconvincing, handling and transport from home complicated - I specify that I do not live on the spot - + the arguments of Didier) by a plant fertilization without fermentation.

How to "manage" a meadow in order to fertilize a vegetable garden yourself?
?


It reminds me, in POSITIVE, the persecutor of Didier on YT ... : Mrgreen:

Hay is not a fertilizer.

We forget the word "fertilize" and we think of hay as a protective cover winter and summer, a refuge for the life of the soil.

If you want an "agradator" in the long term because its protective action allows the earth to be no longer bare and thus to find a "normal" life cycle.

From there Didier will give you all the tips on cutting dates for the best efficiency.

And on reflection there must be something in the message of Didier that induces the idea that hay is a fertilizer: remains to find where ??? Image

In any case good luck for the agradation of your garden plot and welcome here Image
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 21/05/18, 21:43

denis17 wrote: Then, with regard to hay cutting, there are several options available to you, to make 2 mows, one in June, then the new one in September (at sight of the nose), only one late mowing.


I understand the idea of ​​leaving some of the seeds for the meadow maintenance and but regarding the mowing time I am not sure that a late mowing is better with regards to the quality of the hay. Farmers say they prefer to mow early because the protein content will decrease over time (leaf dieback would be a nutrient loss of nitrogen) as cellulose increases (more stem). By cons the amount would be better. According to this information gleaned on the canvas (https://laballeronde.wordpress.com/2017/01/04/le-stade-de-coupe-du-foin-un-element-determinant-pour-fixer-sa-qualite/], it depends on the animals for which the fodder is intended, but even for the horse which prefers the quantity, we advise to mow at the heading at the latest. But maybe this only concerns the "cultivated" meadow and not the "natural" unfertilized meadow as is my case?
I do not hide the fact that in addition to privileging an early mowing I would arrange well because I'm not sure that the owner would leave the meadow up all summer. For my part, I would be at home I would certainly leave a party to manage until the end of summer because especially I love to see the meadow dancing with the wind! But I go astray.
For my part, I would certainly be forced to your first option Denis. Let's see the positive side: it would be like assimilating worms to cows : Shock: if we follow the point of view of the breeders and according to the specialists worms and cows already have one thing in common: it digests 2 times their food (even if it is 2 completely different ways)! But I go astray again, it is not tomorrow that I will milk verses! :P
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Ahmed » 21/05/18, 22:03

What is being researched in phenoculture is both the soil cover and the food of the soil fauna. These are two different and somewhat contradictory goals that strike a fair balance in a compromise. A young, unwoody grass is better and more quickly assimilated, but this is done to the detriment of the effective soil cover, thus the conservation of moisture and the preservation against weeds: a more woody hay ensure a sustainable cover and thus, a complete cycle of culture (avoiding massive replantings during the season).
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 21/05/18, 22:15

I'm coming back from a conference, I'm a little naze. Remind me this thread one of these four.

2 or 3 things:

a) From the forage point of view, the farmers are right: they want the hay richest in "PDI" (Digestible Proteins in the Small Intestine), one of the keys to their ration ... This is our N of the report C / N. Hence the development of the wrapped which is a semi-hay / semi-silage. Young cut. As rich as possible in nitrogen (we prefer, for mowing, the moment when quantity X content of N gives a maximum harvest of PDI per ha) ...

Us, this is not our objective: we are looking for another compromise, not the most nitrogen-rich forage. We need fibers for the formation of humic substances. And also so that the hay lasts a long time and plays its role of "cover". Even a little more fibrous, therefore more durable, more humus-bearing, hay will still be very very much richer in nitrogen than straw. And I'm not talking about the cardboard!

Therefore, later mowing than forage for cows is preferable.

b) The fact remains that putting it on immediately poses problems. Beginning in the same year of decomposition, with two consequences: "disappearance" of hay which will be lacking and beginning of mineralization which can go as far as nitrification. Suddenly, our "natural" garden can become "polluting": a shame!

In addition, it "neutralizes" photosynthesis, by blocking weeds (or green manures) too early. Two or three years ago, I wasn't talking about this. But it was a mistake. I'm still thinking and the "Potager du Laesseux" is still a living concept, which is still moving! Sorry for the elders who may feel like I don't know what I'm saying!

The solution to this (harvested in July and used in winter) is in the constitution of millstones, with a very steep exterior, water runs along (it makes a thatched "roof").

c) Yes, the decomposition of hay, by its mineralization, is a effective fertilization. Hay, according to my calculations, gives more N, P and K than manure or compost, for the same weight carried. It contains all the elements, which the "grass" has taken from where it has grown (horizontal transfer of fertility).

I still have not done my calculations, but I even ask if the contributions are not excessive!

d) If the hay is quite fibrous, then the humification process also occurs, under the influence of fungi. This leads to humic substances, which play an important role in the soil. It is therefore quite essential to produce "old hay".
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 21/05/18, 23:16

[quote = "Did67"] However, putting it in right away poses problems. Beginning in the same year of decomposition, with two consequences: "disappearance" of hay which will be lacking and beginning of mineralization which can go as far as nitrification. Suddenly, our "natural" garden can become "polluting": a shame!

Arg! I knew without knowing it would turn into a nightmare!
Can we know when this mineralization would begin, then this nitrification after the break in the coverage. In my case, I covered my soil very late: in spring, April or even May and I quickly started my crops after the cover. Can we imagine that I avoided without looking for this possible nitrification "lost" in the soils? Should we quickly start cultivation after covering the hay?

Outside this thread: salutations Didier! Thank you for your shares, your videos and your book ... that have renewed my passion garden and now your feedback, even if it seems to be a serious question in question! I see that you do not rest on your laurels (or on your deckchair?)!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by izentrop » 22/05/18, 01:05

Hello,
to be chafoin wrote:Can we know when this mineralization would begin, then this nitrification after the break in the coverage. In my case, I covered my soil very late: in spring, April or even May and I quickly started my crops after the cover. Can we imagine that I avoided without looking for this possible nitrification "lost" in the soils?
This is the role of CIPAN in agriculture https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_i ... ge_d'azote.

Did correct, but the problem will be more in the winter, when the soil life is slow and a board is no longer busy while being covered with hay.
Nitrates not absorbed by the previous crop could be leached, but it is more a problem of shallow soil, sandy soil, plowed (accelerated mineralization), lacking humus and left bare.

I think that for a living ground garden, well provided with organic matter, surrounded by a meadow, trees and not at the edge of a river, there is little chance that it happens.
The fungus mycelium network must also help prevent this loss of nutrients?
Last edited by izentrop the 22 / 05 / 18, 01: 07, 1 edited once.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 22/05/18, 01:07

Did67 wrote:beginning of mineralization up to nitrification. Suddenly, our "natural" garden can become "polluting": a shame!


Can we imagine the more systematic use of "nitrate traps" such as green manures, especially in so-called catch crops (in spring or before the onset of winter)?
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