Hydraulics, a false good idea?

[yannko]

Christophe I am closely your post, extremely interesting and positive in my opinion ! I look forward to your results and your reviews once your functional system courage to realize it after I will find an old farm in Moravia with a forest to make my heating stove and boiler, and a watercourse to make my electricity with a paddle wheel !

[Woodcutter]

Well I am not an expert, but apparently it is unusual to find such a "domestic" device, adaptable to a low fall height, not denaturing streams, and for a reasonable price. Apparently, gathering all these arguments becomes a hard-to-find affair

This is where I do not really agree because, with the images shown, we apparently have to install this turbine at the level of a dam! And a dam 1.5 m high on a small stream, I don't call it "do not denature" ...

[chatelot16]

to use the power of the water it is necessary to modify the river

the natural state of the river, it is a regular slope where all the energy is lost in small fast

the modified state is a dam and a fairly wide reach where the water moves very slowly and therefore without slope and thus has a good height of fall at the dam level

in France most rivers have been developed since we know how to make mill ... even often the mill is gone but we continued to maintain the dam because we prefer a wide river and always filled even when the debit is weak rather than a trickle of water at the bottom of an empty bed

the rivers have been developed for so long that it is the poison adapted to this state that have developed ... if we destroyed the dam it would be another disruption

it must be understood that often what is believed natural is the result of modification by man for a very long time: refusing to change is ridiculous ... which does not mean that we have to change anyhow

for example a river will produce exactly the same total energy with a multitude of small dam with each one its turbine, that with only one huge dam which makes a single fall ... it is even possible sometimes that the huge dam has more loss that the multitude of small dam

at the beginning of the electrical production it favored the big dam because one did not know how to automate ... and it was not profitable to put employees to make work turbine too small

now that it is easy to make everything automatic it becomes possible to put turbine in all the small dam of the old mill ... and to rebuild some dam that has been demolished

we also know how to make fish passage to allow the passing of the migratory fish! there is really no reason not to properly exploit the energy of the rivers

and alas it remains a lamentable reason to do nothing: the complexity of the authorization to obtain to put into service an old mill to make electricity ... the state should encourage it, but alas it only complicates Things

[moinsdewatt]

for example a river will produce exactly the same total energy with a multitude of small dam with each one its turbine, that with only one huge dam which makes a single fall ... it is even possible sometimes that the huge dam has more loss that the multitude of small dam

at the beginning of the electrical production it favored the big dam because one did not know how to automate ... and it was not profitable to put employees to make work turbine too small

It is exactly the opposite that EDF does in the Romanche valley.
Several electric dams over the Romanche dating from the 1920 years are replaced by a single winding and heavy gallery work.

The Romanche-Gavet shipyard: a water and future project

At the gates of Oisans, in a narrow valley, EDF is currently leading the largest hydroelectric project in France. More powerful, better integrated with the landscape and respectful of the environment, this new underground equipment will replace the 6 central and 5 current dams of the Romanche valley.

30% more electricity

The new plant and the new dam - water intake optimize the operation of the river:
the plant is equipped with 2 Francis units for a maximum power of 92 MW,
the average annual production is estimated at 560 million kWh, ie 155 kWh more than the current central 6 combined. This increase of 30% corresponds to the power supply of a city of 60000 inhabitants.

Three areas of construction

On the 10 km of the commune of Livet and Gavet, the building site is on 3 zones:
The dam-intake, located in Livet, built in the original bed of the river, will replace the current 5 dams.
The 9,3 km feeder tunnel connects the dam to the plant. Entirely underground, it replaces the kilometers of canals and penstocks that today crisscross the valley. An access window is located in Ponant.
The power station, its two caves and galleries are also underground.

https://www.edf.fr/groupe-edf/producteu ... t-d-avenir

[chatelot16]

your example is in the mountains, with high altitude: the old dam of 1920 did not exploit all the elevation ... it would have been necessary to make many intermediate dam for the water to go from reach to reach without any natural part

so the edf solution is not bad!

I see the doubs a besancon and charente a angouleme: there is no natural part: it jumps reach in reach: all the elevation are dam, but alas there is a dam equipped with turbine ... the most of the arrests are maintained only to maintain the water level and the energy is lost by overflowing on the dam

[sen-no-sen]

We do not talk enough about hydroelectricity, this little topic digging does not hurt!

I often hear that France would be under the yoke of the nuclear lobby and that there would be countries that would play the role of good student in terms of renewable as Norway for example (THE good student of the earth!).
In Norway 98% of the electrical energy is produced by ENR including 96% via dams!
In France it is only 11% of hydraulic ... but let's take a closer look.
The population of Norway is 5,2 million inhabitants,ie 1,8 million less than the population of "Grand Paris".
In fact France is doing better than Norway in terms of ENR as our hydropower production is supplying more than 6 million inhabitants ...
For example, the retention of Greenhouse Ponçon provided 40% of the electricity consumed in the PACA region.

The development of wind energy should boost the production of hydropower through STEP(pumping energy transfer station), we should eventually see a certain number of "dedicated valleys" (ie flooded!) in order to allow the gravity storage of excess energy from wind power and electricity. solar ... there will be opposition in the air!

[chatelot16]

for example a river will produce exactly the same total energy with a multitude of small dam with each one its turbine, that with only one huge dam which makes a single fall ... it is even possible sometimes that the huge dam has more loss that the multitude of small dam

at the beginning of the electrical production it favored the big dam because one did not know how to automate ... and it was not profitable to put employees to make work turbine too small

It is exactly the opposite that EDF does in the Romanche valley.
Several electric dams over the Romanche dating from the 1920 years are replaced by a single winding and heavy gallery work.

The Romanche-Gavet shipyard: a water and future project

At the gates of Oisans, in a narrow valley, EDF is currently leading the largest hydroelectric project in France. More powerful, better integrated with the landscape and respectful of the environment, this new underground equipment will replace the 6 central and 5 current dams of the Romanche valley.

30% more electricity

The new plant and the new dam - water intake optimize the operation of the river:
the plant is equipped with 2 Francis units for a maximum power of 92 MW,
the average annual production is estimated at 560 million kWh, ie 155 kWh more than the current central 6 combined. This increase of 30% corresponds to the power supply of a city of 60000 inhabitants.

Three areas of construction

On the 10 km of the commune of Livet and Gavet, the building site is on 3 zones:
The dam-intake, located in Livet, built in the original bed of the river, will replace the current 5 dams.
The 9,3 km feeder tunnel connects the dam to the plant. Entirely underground, it replaces the kilometers of canals and penstocks that today crisscross the valley. An access window is located in Ponant.
The power station, its two caves and galleries are also underground.

https://www.edf.fr/groupe-edf/producteu ... t-d-avenir

reading what edf wrote i am disappointed! the new plant will only produce 30% more than the old 1920 plants ... so they were already very good at 1920 so we could not do much better today!

I hope they will not demolish the old 1920 power plants! they will still be able to serve when there is too much water and the new plant can not use everything ... we must also keep them to show what we did before the planned obsolescence

[moinsdewatt]

reading what edf wrote i am disappointed! the new plant will only produce 30% more than the old 1920 plants ... so they were already very good at 1920 so we could not do much better today!

I hope they will not demolish the old 1920 power plants! they will still be able to serve when there is too much water and the new plant can not use everything ... we must also keep them to show what we did before the planned obsolescence

There is no need to be disappointed. 30% more than 100 MW is not bad.

It shows especially that hydroelectric energy ie the science of electricity and hydraulics was well controlled in 1920.

It's like the wheel, would you come to the idea of ​​criticizing the wheel because in the nineteenth century you have not gained more than a few percent yield?
Well no. The invention of the wheel was quickly brilliant.

And not the old factories will not be preserved functionally. There is one that will be preserved as a historical monument.

[moinsdewatt]

We do not talk enough about hydroelectricity, this little topic digging does not hurt!

I often hear that France would be under the yoke of the nuclear lobby and that there would be countries that would play the role of good student in terms of renewable as Norway for example (THE good student of the earth!).
In Norway 98% of the electrical energy is produced by ENR including 96% via dams!
In France it is only 11% of hydraulic ... but let's take a closer look.
The population of Norway is 5,2 million inhabitants,ie 1,8 million less than the population of "Grand Paris".
In fact France is doing better than Norway in terms of ENR as our hydropower production is supplying more than 6 million inhabitants ...
For example, the retention of Greenhouse Ponçon provided 40% of the electricity consumed in the PACA region.

The development of wind energy should boost the production of hydropower through STEP(pumping energy transfer station), we should eventually see a certain number of "dedicated valleys" (ie flooded!) in order to allow the gravity storage of excess energy from wind power and electricity. solar ... there will be opposition in the air!

I am not aware of a single STEP project in France under study.
Do you have information on it?

[sen-no-sen]

We do not talk enough about hydroelectricity, this little topic digging does not hurt!

I am not aware of a single STEP project in France under study.
Do you have information on it?

Several studies are currently in progress:https://www.actu-environnement.com/ae/news/stockage-electricite-renouvelable-station-pompage-eolien-solaire-30385.php4