Liquid nitrogen generator engine

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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 17/03/18, 16:22

Remundo wrote:
Eric Dupont wrote:when you were talking about big bands, I was thinking about the industrial group in the field of energy, total, edf, engie and also the group in the automobile, since my system is above all a powerful battery. and which makes it possible to store a large quantity of energy at low cost as the remundo emphasizes it, and like the confirmed chatelot, the yield would be less good, of the order of 60%.

good at the same time, the yield you advertise is not ridiculous (but remains to be demonstrated); if in terms of costs / kWh stored you do better than batteries ... it will have the advantage of "pulling" less on metal mines.

do not neglect anyway the price and the volume of a cryogenic tank ... on a car this volume is penalizing. For example, 2 must be counted at 3 times the volume stored.


from a theoretical point of view the engine develops 240 wh per kg of liquid nitrogen. an efficiency of 80% for this type of engine if it is of substantial power is not unrealistic. we hope 200 wh kg or even 160 wh / liter, the energy density of a good lithium battery.

if we compare the theoretical energy density compared to the compressed air engine of MDI, it is not the same on several levels. in 1 liter of tank only 300 grams of air are stored against 800 grams of liquid nitrogen. so it produces almost 3 times less energy.

the mdi motor has a double expansion but do not inject water (for the moment) so there is a loss of at least 30% may be less for low power.

thirdly the liquid air at equal weight with the compressed air has more energy because precisely there is the passage from the liquid state to the gaseous state which brings a gain of 50% as demonstrated by the patent.

to sum up for a liter of tank, the liquid nitrogen engine is capable of producing with 800 grams of nitrogen, 160 wh while the compressed air engine with 1 liter of tank and 300 grams of air is closer to 0,3, 80 * 24 wh = XNUMX wh

if we take the example of the air pod which is 400 kg with a 200 liter tank, we have an energy reserve of 5 kwh, for an urban cycle where the speed is modest on average 20 or 30 km / h. we must be able not to be far from the autonomy advanced by guy negre, autonomy which can be doubled by heating the air. on the liquid nitrogen engine we can also heat the air and double the energy capacity.

as I said, I don't think that the big groups will have fun to launch out in a legal battle to monopolize, the patent, their strategy, will be: the bashing, the indifference. wait in the hope that it does not develop to continue to sell polluting cars with which it earns money. governments will follow the same strategy.

but hey it's not a very complicated engine, you should not exaggerate. :P
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by sicetaitsimple » 17/03/18, 18:23

izentrop wrote:No prototype either ...


Oh, I'm not asking for so much! A process diagram such as on page 1 supplemented by mass flow rates and powers generated by the engine and absorbed by each of the auxiliaries would suffice at first for my happiness!
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 18/03/18, 09:47

the mass air flow in the exchanger to vaporize liquid nitrogen is 1,7 times greater than that of liquid nitrogen. it is indicated in the text of the patent.
for the isothermal expansion of 1 kg from 300 bar to 1 bar of nitrogen it takes 160 wh this energy is obtained by cooling the water, 1 liter of water which undergoes a cooling of 5 °, it is 6 Wh , therefore 25 liters of water per kg of expanded nitrogen are required.
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chatelot16
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by chatelot16 » 18/03/18, 11:16

Eric Dupont wrote:from a theoretical point of view the engine develops 240 wh per kg of liquid nitrogen. an efficiency of 80% for this type of engine if it is of substantial power is not unrealistic. we hope 200 wh kg or even 160 wh / liter, the energy density of a good lithium battery.



the energy weight ratio of nitrogen is not the right figure ... you need the energy weight ratio of your complete machine ... and in my opinion the whole of this machine will be far too heavy for a vehicle ... barely usable for fixed installation

and in my opinion, even for fixed installation the cost of this material will be beyond any hope of profitability

for me a use of energy storage by liquid air must be integrated with another use of liquid air, like producing welding gases ... and instead of producing gases 24 hours a day like the current factories , produce at full power only at the time when there is electricity in rab on the network ... and reduce the power to the bare minimum to maintain the right temperature when the price of electricity is the highest .. and if the variation in the electricity tariff is sufficient make their installation reversible

there is nothing to invent ... among large gas manufacturers there are necessarily people competent to do it, and if they do not it is that there is not yet a price of electricity variable enough to make it profitable

the more the price of electricity will be variable the more it will encourage to transform factories with constant consumption into storage factories

another problem for using liquid air as a car engine: completely unusable when it is not hot enough ... especially with your water injection ... if the ambient temperature is not at least 10 ° it will freeze ... your water injection principle is a problem nest ... if the system was dry the nitrogen leaving the regulator could directly feed the rest of the cycle where you put compressed air, without risk of freezing whatever the ambient temperature ... the energy produced when it is less than zero would be just a little lower but still usable

the exploitation of the energy of a liquid gas could be done as an improvement in the use of liquid methane ... the methane liquefaction plants which currently consume about 10% of methane to make their energy, could be supplied by photovoltaic and sell 10% more gas

the regasification stations which unload the LNG tankers, could be producer of electrical energy using cold energy ... the transport of liquid methane would become a means of transporting a little solar energy coming from the countries which have at the same time lots of gas and lots of sun

alas it seems that the idea of ​​making energy with the regasification of methane is still not used in large because the investment is too expensive and that the energy is not yet expensive enough for it to be profitable
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by sicetaitsimple » 18/03/18, 11:48

Eric Dupont wrote:l
for the isothermal expansion of 1 kg from 300 bar to 1 bar of nitrogen it takes 160 wh this energy is obtained by cooling the water, 1 liter of water which undergoes a cooling of 5 °, it is 6 Wh , therefore 25 liters of water per kg of expanded nitrogen are required.


I wrote page 2:

The adiabatic compression, I understand, but the isothermal relaxation a little less, given the scheme. There is a hot spring hidden somewhere?

I was very bad language! The hot spring was not hidden, you just had to understand that for 1kg of nitrogen introduced into the engine you had to introduce 25kg of water!

It still does not completely resolve the issue, because this water, which I imagine you recycle, it went from 15 ° C to 10 ° C. How do you heat it before you re-inject it, just to find out what the real hot spring is?
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chatelot16
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by chatelot16 » 18/03/18, 12:01

the hot spring can be room temperature ... so using water it only works when it's hot enough not to freeze everything

mixing water to make isothermal relaxation is a problem nest

sharing the expansion valve between several pistons with an intermediate exchanger is a classic solution

several pistons each optimized for its working pressure can even be lighter in total than one which has to do both the large volume and the great pressure

using the heat of the ambient air with exchangers between pistons will work whatever the temperature, but with a problem of the same kind as heat pumps when it is cold! the exchangers are frosted, and they must be heated from time to time to defrost ... another loss of performance in addition
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by sicetaitsimple » 18/03/18, 12:38

chatelot16 wrote:
sharing the expansion valve between several pistons with an intermediate exchanger is a classic solution



Certainly, but it is not the patented process that is the subject of the debate. Let's stay on this one if you don't mind.
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 18/03/18, 13:38

in the patented process it is possible to make several expansion with intermediate exchanger but it is in my opinion less effective than water injection.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by sicetaitsimple » 18/03/18, 13:42

Eric Dupont wrote:in the patented process it is possible to make several expansion with intermediate exchanger but it is in my opinion less effective than water injection.


Why not, but "This does not completely resolve the question, because this water, which I imagine you recycle, it has gone from 15 ° C to 10 ° C. How do you warm it up before you inject it back, just to find out what the real hot source is? "
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 18/03/18, 14:01

well let us assume that the outside air temperature is 15 ° C and that we have water at 15 ° C, once passed in the engine the water will be at 10 ° C and therefore it will be necessary reheat to 15 ° c in a water and outdoor air radiator.

we can also use all the low temperature heat sources available. geothermal energy, factory rejection, thermal power station, nuclear power and increase the efficiency in design. if the water is at 50 ° C rather than 15 ° C, the energy recovered is increased by 10%.
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