The universal basic income or income: operating debate

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Ahmed
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Ahmed » 08/03/17, 12:28

More broadly, it would be interesting to position the arrival of such a device in time and to place it in the deterministic logic that drives contemporary history.
Several elements seem to predict the advent of a quantitative technological leap (NBIC).
As chance is not on the agenda in the system, it is a safe bet that the UK is therefore part of a logic of neutralization.

Thanks to you, I discovered the theoretical possibility of a capitalism beyond, a dystopia which would be a techno-system, which would necessarily emancipate itself from the economy, since social relations would be overturned. The fact remains that the possible transition (because it is a virtuality) is difficult to grasp intellectually, however things now seem clearer to me. Universal income is a possible tool in this transitional phase, in the sense that it allows us to assume for some time the growing uselessness of an overwhelming part of the population. This is another danger that I had not previously considered: this moratorium on discontent would continue to the point where the transition would be advanced enough for it to be purely and simply abolished unilaterally and with it the survival of those that he supported.
For the economic system to disappear (this supposes that the determinisms which could work in favor of a techno-systemic transition intervene before the contradictions of the current system cause its collapse), it is imperative that the current social relations cease to exist. express through categories of abstract value, labor and commodity, so that an "elite" controlling the machines deploys another ideology, based on completely new categories.
We see here that supporting the UK is a very dangerous option and that it is very adventurous to do without serious economic and political analysis, to be content with a rattle that will satisfy the aspirations of current opponents who do not yet understand, for the most part, how favorable it is to them (as has already been seen many times in history).
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by sen-no-sen » 08/03/17, 23:07

Ahmed wrote:Thanks to you, I discovered the theoretical possibility of a capitalism beyond, a dystopia which would be a techno-system, which would necessarily emancipate itself from the economy, since social relations would be overturned.


It is to do me a lot of honor! : Oops:

Universal income is a possible tool in this transitional phase, in the sense that it allows us to assume for some time the growing uselessness of an overwhelming part of the population. This is another danger that I had not previously considered: this moratorium on discontent would continue to the point where the transition would be advanced enough for it to be purely and simply abolished unilaterally and with it the survival of those that he supported.


Indeed, it is important to understand universal income, not as such, but as a principle articulated within a more general mechanism.
The basic idea of ​​the UK is in itself quite attractive, but considerably loses its potential for attractiveness once understood within the historical process to come.
It makes it clear that, contrary to what is taken up by certain (as B. Hamon for example), the automation of the means of production, and more generally of the functioning of a large part of society will not impact only jobs with low level of qualification in favor of jobs accessible to high graduates (such as engineers or other),but rather the reverse.

The economic market should, on the contrary, strive to destroy the best-paid jobs in favor of automation and leave the underpaid "jobs" to a docile and very large workforce. Indeed, why automate when you have access to an army of working poor?
It will be much more profitable "to employ on demand" ("flexi-security") than to use expensive robots with little skill to perform complex tasks such as cleaning, personal assistance, or hospitality.

It is in this sense that universal income comes into play: guaranteeing a minimum of existence in order to make the masses of poor workers docile,to neutralize the minimum wage in passing and to allow the extension of the technological conquest process by pushing back the social implosion to a later period *.


(...) satisfy the aspirations of current opponents who do not yet understand, for the most part, how favorable it is to them (as has already been seen many times in history).


Indeed it turns out that the reversal of jacket is common thing among politicians, as the news shows us ...
When the time comes the UK will impose itself and will have the right to an unstoppable replica of the type "I was against it then I thought about it for a long time and I now find the idea attractive" , typical of the politician who is not thinking, but who is a reflection of the economic system that carries it.




* Period when humanity should no longer be able to influence technologism ....
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Petrus » 09/03/17, 00:53

sen-no-sen wrote:It is in this sense that universal income comes into play: guaranteeing a minimum of existence in order to make the masses of poor workers docile,to neutralize the minimum wage in passing and to allow the extension of the technological conquest process by pushing back the social implosion to a later period *.

There I am no longer, how can ensuring basic needs make workers more docile?
It is rather the opposite, if his basic needs are guaranteed, the worker will more easily send his boss to shit if the wages and working conditions are not satisfactory.
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Ahmed » 09/03/17, 09:27

My remark on the Tory opponents in the UK was not just about the political caste, but the dominant ones more generally. Indeed, being unaware of the historical evolution, they do not perceive the interest which they would draw from this measure which is currently taking them "against the grain" (just like workers' pensions, paid holidays or the increase in wages in due time).
Note: I think a politician would not put it that way, but rather in this form - "I had expressed certain reservations when this measure of the UK had been debated, because I then considered it premature and unsuitable for the context of the time, today the time has come for this social advance to find its full place in our society and that she contributes ... etc".

Pétrus: this is the reasoning used to "sell" the UK, but, like a glove, it can easily turn around. Indeed, a basic income exempts the employer from offering a living wage *, knowing that the application of the UK does not stipulate in any way the amount of this income and therefore does not provide any information on the possibility of living with this minimum (although other economic parameters are involved). In reality, the UK is one more tool making it possible to manage at will (since it is not the "beneficiaries" who determine the terms) a completely dependent wage bill in head-on competition.

* There is therefore a transfer of cost from the employee to the benefit of the company and to the detriment of the community, as is already observed through various mechanisms, such as that of "return to employment", for example.
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 10:02

Petrus wrote:There I am no longer, how can ensuring basic needs make workers more docile?
It is rather the opposite, if his basic needs are guaranteed, the worker will more easily send his boss to shit if the wages and working conditions are not satisfactory.


You answer the question yourself ...
Why demonstrate when basic needs are met?
The masses of demonstrators are made up in great majority by employees, civil servants, executives (who defend their bread in a fairly corporatist way by the way ... SNCF for example ...)
It is clear that few "RSists" take to the streets, and the long-term unemployed are not among the most virulent political activists ... simple observation.
For the rest, we must not delude ourselves, in a world where properly remunerated work is rare, very few workers will send their bosses to graze.

Another point more societal this time: the progressive disappearance of the middle classes in favor of a petty bourgeoisie should influence by imitation (phenomenon already very present!) The masses of poor workers who in one way or another will have to accept small weekly, daily or even hourly jobs to allow a junction to guarantee a comfortable income.
Docility will therefore be instituted via the "pressure of comfort".
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 10:04

Ahmed wrote:Note: I think a politician would not put it that way, but rather in this form - "I had expressed certain reservations when this measure of the UK had been debated, because I then considered it premature and unsuitable for the context of the time, today the time has come for this social advance to find its full place in our society and that she contributes ... etc".


You should write political speeches Ahmed, you're good! : Mrgreen:
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Ahmed » 09/03/17, 10:29

Thank you for your appreciation, but I don't find it a difficult literary genre, once we have understood the general principles that govern it (sic) and knowing that it is completely useless to burden ourselves with any form of sincerity (which provides great flexibility) ... : roll:
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Petrus » 09/03/17, 19:58

sen-no-sen wrote:You answer the question yourself ...
Why demonstrate when basic needs are met?
The masses of demonstrators are made up in great majority by employees, civil servants, executives (who defend their bread in a fairly corporatist way by the way ... SNCF for example ...)
It is clear that few "RSists" take to the streets, and the long-term unemployed are not among the most virulent political activists ... simple observation.

The number of jobseekers is already higher than the offers and it will not rebalance in the future. There can therefore no longer be a distribution of wealth through work, workers will always be in a weak position. They will be able to demonstrate they will have nothing as is already the case now and if the protests take on too large a size to be suppressed immediately, the dominant will organize chaos to then turn the situation to their advantage, by adding a turn of the screw by the way.

sen-no-sen wrote:For the rest, we must not delude ourselves, in a world where properly remunerated work is rare, very few workers will send their bosses to graze.

Another point more societal this time: the progressive disappearance of the middle classes in favor of a petty bourgeoisie should influence by imitation (phenomenon already very present!) The masses of poor workers who in one way or another will have to accept small weekly, daily or even hourly jobs to allow a junction to guarantee a comfortable income.
Docility will therefore be instituted via the "pressure of comfort".

As you yourself point out, this is already the case. In general, I do not see how the UK would make the current situation worse, where the pressure is not comfort pressure, but survival pressure.

If not, what are the alternatives?
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 20:58

Petrus wrote:As you yourself point out, this is already the case. In general, I do not see how the UK would make the current situation worse, where the pressure is not comfort pressure, but survival pressure.


The danger of the UK lies in the idea of ​​accepting the destruction of employment.
In this sense, it constitutes an adjustment variable to the transformations of the anthropotechnical world.
We also find this logic in many areas, as is the case with charity associations such as restaurants of hearts, Catholic relief, etc.
Now everyone finds it normal that such associations exist at the same time or the multinational distribution company throws thousands of tonnes of consumable products ...

If not, what are the alternatives?


Full employment and its distribution (half-time paid full-time for women with dependent children, for example).
Not so long ago there were so many jobs that even children were forced to work and not 35 hours / week.
It is the flow of energy that flows through our societies that determines economic structures.
In today's society, the trend is towards monopolies and the saturation of space and time by the economy due to merciless energy dissipation.
By slowing down its flows, we will in fact have a societal reorganization which will lead to a better distribution of activity.
However for such a scenario to be realized it is necessary to introduce consciousness into it, otherwise our society, driven by its determinisms (the invisible hand) will inevitably tend towards its collapse.
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Re: Basic income or universal income: functioning, debate




by Ahmed » 09/03/17, 22:54

Pétrus rightly emphasizes the balance of power unfavorable to employees, which does not bode well for a possible distribution or organization of work. The way out cannot be the claim of a "right" to work which only refers to the determinisms which are the causes of this inexorable destruction, but only by positioning outside the categories specific to these determinisms.
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