Is making durable is incompatible with growth?

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
BobFuck
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by BobFuck » 27/02/13, 10:04

Obamot wrote:Look for example at what happened to the flat screen panels, with the Samsung-Sony + LG consortium (S-LCD launched in 2003-2004 from memory) making almost 40% of all screens in the world.
On the photo side Sony manufactures more than 56% of CCD sensors and more than 33% of CMOS which are found in your photo or video cameras up to mobile phones:


To make panels, camera sensors, memory chips or large processors, you need a factory at 10 billion. So it concentrates, it's normal.

Various techniques are implemented to achieve this, e.g. on flat screens the power supply capacitors would be, (from what I learned from an amateur repairman who takes advantage of this bias to "resuscitate "screens thrown in recycling center; can someone confirm?) specially configured for this purpose.


The capacitor manufacturer gives all the information in its technical documentation. For example, you can put a specified capacitor to hold 1000h at 85 ° C, 10.000h at 85 ° C, or 1000h at 105 ° C, etcetera. It's transparent.

Well, there may be some shady series (MSI sad memory motherboards) where the specification is not met at all because the manufacturer has crashed, but it is rare.

On the other hand, the brand is really important: we can be sure that a Panasonic, Nichicon or other component will meet its specifications ... if it's Chong Bang, it's more the lottery ...

The capacitors are next to the heatsinks because otherwise it doesn't work. So they heat up. The puppet that says "just put them at the other end" is a puppet. We could put them on the other side of the PCB, but it's more expensive. We could cool better, have better air circulation, but it's bigger, and therefore more expensive, and the trend is miniaturization, so it's not sales. We could increase the performance of the power supply so that it heats less, but it is more expensive.

10 ° C less doubles the service life. For example a "2000h 105 ° C" at 45 ° C, or 60 ° C less, will last 2 ^ 6 times longer, or 15 years in continuous service. If it's a 63V used at 30V, you'll be dead before it slams.

But quality costs. Basically, for the power of your PC screen to last 5 more years, it would cost 1 or 2 euros more to make, so 10 € more on the sale price. On a screen at 100-150 €, that's a lot. Most buyers would choose the competitor's model, and the boss of the box would be fired by the American pension funds that bought it to make money.

> "Is sustainable manufacturing incompatible with growth"

I would say, it depends.

Take a fridge from the sixties, built like a tank, that lasts 60 years. A modern fridge will last 40 years? But it will consume much less electricity ... so, if "sustainable" = "green", it depends. In any case, we have to recycle the old shit ...
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by elephant » 27/02/13, 11:51

The history of capacitors is completely authentic.

LG uses just-in-voltage capacitors: they last a little over 2 years.
Panasonic, no problem
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by Did67 » 27/02/13, 13:10

BobFuck wrote:
Take a fridge from the sixties, built like a tank, that lasts 60 years. A modern fridge will last 40 years? But it will consume much less electricity ... so, if "sustainable" = "green", it depends. In any case, we have to recycle the old shit ...


Certainly !

But in relation to the debate:

1) I said above that there is technical progress and therefore "technical" obsolescence exists ...

2) The problem is planned obsolence: there is no reason why the modern fridge, highly efficient from an energy point of view (essentially free from careful insulation), should not last 50 years like its " cuckoo "ancestor (who, by the way, had to" work "a lot more - I'm talking about the group - because the cabinet was less isolated!).

It would still be better to have a thrifty AND durable fridge, right ??? Because once again, there is no rasion that "technically", it no longer goes the distance!

But in the meantime, we invented planned obsolescence (I remind you that it is a question of introducing sciamment of "weak elements" to generate a failure after about 10 years and to force to buy back a device of which 97% of the elements worked perfectly. !)


Personal experience :

- I have in the cellar the AEG freezer bought by my parents when I was 10 years old; I am now 60 years old; so yes, I'm almost enraged because I would like to replace it with an A +++ device

- I repaired, about 2 years ago, my Electrolux refrigerator bought 12 years ago; about 30 euros of coins and it works since ...

- I repaired twice my Whirlpool dishwasher purchased 12 years ago; I no longer remember the amounts of the coins; it still works ...

- I replaced my Whirlpool washing machine bought 12 years ago by an old Bosch bought second hand which refuses to die (I would replace it with a machine with hot water inlet, plugged into my CESI). It was the programmer that I could not repair and a new programmer cost more than the neighbor's Bosch ...

There, all is said.
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by Did67 » 27/02/13, 13:15

BobFuck wrote:
But quality costs. Basically, for the power of your PC screen to last 5 more years, it would cost 1 or 2 euros more to make, so 10 € more on the sale price. On a screen at 100-150 €, that's a lot. Most buyers would choose the competitor's model, and the boss of the box would be fired by the American pension funds which bought it to make money ...


Not necessarily 10 euros, but indeed ...

As a result, the individual buys a new computer at 599 euros every 3 years ...

Your words illustrate well that by reasoning "in the system" and "like the system", there is no way out ...

On a certain number of products for which "technical" obsolescence is less marked (than for computers for example), I am not sure that we could not sell devices guaranteed for 20 years for 10 or 15% more. ... Fridge, washing machine, boilers, waffle iron, food processor ...

CF the Honda ad that I mentioned above (even if the deal is a bit "hacked") ... The idea is there.
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by culbuto » 27/02/13, 14:32

the son worked for a while for leroy merlin lab section: they had to determine the resistance of the gear sold. For example determining from what impact force a sink would be screwed up. And surprise: they give the results in high places. decisions taken: they take the gear with just enough resistance for a use of a certain time, but not enough history to have to renew it! that's for all the items sold.
You also have the documentary on the expiration dates of food. The date on the yogurts is determined according to the time it takes to sell their stock of produced goods! it has nothing to do with research on possible germs or a health report!

we are well in a consumer society .........
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by sherkanner » 27/02/13, 14:33

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by Forhorse » 27/02/13, 15:41

culbuto wrote:You also have the documentary on the expiration dates of food. The date on the yogurts is determined according to the time it takes to sell their stock of produced goods! it has nothing to do with research on possible germs or a health report!

we are well in a consumer society .........


Quite true, I worked for a while in the food industry, and on the same production line, so same basic product, same manufacturing and therefore same potential "lifespan" the DLC / DLUO written on the packaging depended on the specifications given by the customer.
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by Did67 » 27/02/13, 17:06

sherkanner wrote:Perhaps a first step in the fight against planned obsolescence:

http://www.numerama.com/magazine/25223-une-elue-demande-une-vraie-garantie-de-2-ans-contre-l-obsolescence-programmee.html


Finally, it's a bit ... weak and naive.

Marketing is organized as follows:

- very high reliability of the equipment at 5 years: this makes it possible to offer paid and very ... profitable "extended warranty"! [this is where a good part of the margin is made, especially if "call price"!]

- breakdowns occur massively after: it is rather around 10 years that is targeted, but it obviously depends on usage ...

I doubt that it is currently possible to legislate effectively on the issue, but:

a) a 5 year warranty obligation would cut the grass under the feet of juicy warranty extensions ...

b) I think that planned obsolescence would be fought more with a "line" of products "guaranteed for 20 years" but sold reasonably more expensive [there was a time, I do not know if this is still true, a brand like Miele had this reputation for indestructibility!]

c) and undoubtedly better still with a legal obligation of "repairability": the trick, for the manufacturers, is obviously to grill a very small component in the middle; result: the repair estimate is 399 euros when the same new equipment, more design, is worth 429,90 in promo! So we throw ...

I remember a report in hidden camera where a whole box-maker repaired plasma TVs: the gar boned, plunged on a palque, unsoldered a component at 10 euros, replaced it and voila ...
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