Summer geothermal solar heating project for winter

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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 16/10/12, 13:48

do not oversize the dome on the methanizer to make storage, because it may be essential to dismantle this dome for repair work in the methanizer

independent storage of the methanizer allows the group to continue to run during the works

the advantage of gas is to be able to be transported by a simple pipe without any loss: it is therefore necessary to put the storage dome far enough to not have the constraints of ERP

but there will still be the problem of authorization to build a gas pipe outside his property

a solution not free: entrust the installation and management of the end of the pipe to gdf, or I do not know which subsidiary which takes care of the gas network and which has very particular rights

a CO2 purification system would be beneficial to be close to the group to take advantage of the heat ... but it will rather be necessary to put it near the dome so as not to be close to erp

your information is very informative: it means that for a new project it may be necessary from the start to prefer to build the whole bazaar far from everything so as not to have additional costs, and tanpis if a pipe of hot water or steam to heat user has a little loss

a hot water pipe is installed without administrative problem

your very loose soil can be a quality for passing a gas pipe: can be easier to obtain authorization at great depth

other solution, buy the land necessary to pass the gas pipes

how far should the storage be to no longer be bothered by stories of establishments receiving the public?
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 16/10/12, 14:32

Did67 notes:
I still don't have a "better idea" than the one I had: storage in the first 15 meters of our loess. But I still have trouble figuring out! I am quite tempted by the burial of a simple network of PE with a drainer. But I did not even find how far, in loose soil without rocks, such a machine could descend!


There are no limits to moving the earth (clearly visible when looking at the foundations of a large building, or building a highway), except the price which is the only crucial element of this difficult project, because the energy is not expensive, very much lower than the price of the energy of a man pedaling or climbing a staircase carrying objects.

Dig, it's the price of an hour of human work with a backhoe, which dice more than 1,5m deep, in this soft loess, quick to dig, asks to support the trench solidly to avoid burying those who work there. This increases the price. Except to dig a large amount of soil very wide. Randomly, a day of work by 500m3 to 1000m3, approximately with the large fast bulldozer if there is room, forgetting the transport, maintenance and amortization time, of this bulldozer, which cannot be reduced.
If you want to keep the heat you need more than 3m deep.

If not, it is necessary to innovate in the method of deep drilling, more precisely to simplify what exists for larger diameters, while one wishes to pass a cheap 16mm PE pipe through this loess for the cheapest possible.

Making it simple and inexpensive is much more difficult, valued in Japan, not in France !!

The simplest is to push in by tapping and shaking a fine pipe in this soft softened and liquefied soil, by injecting water and air (Karcher or tap pressure with air at 6 Bars of ordinary compressor), which brings up the Chinese loess, from the bottom after having liquefied it.

This is what I would do personally in this loess, where a 2m pencil, must drop instantly to 2m by stirring forcefully, by hand, by strongly wetting the Chinese loess, ultra elementary test to be done before.
If I came to you, this is the first test I would do, before any other opinion.
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post216406.html#216406
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post216480.html#216480


It should fit like butter, with a thin steel plumbing pipe formed of 4m ends screwed on each other, but it is the first point to test, in a small test, before any decision, because it test this loess in depth, in particular what it contains in real in depth of unknown !!


The simplest, in principle, is to robotize a small living (or artificial) mole with the 16mm PE pipe (drip) attached behind, to the tail which descends to 17m deep and rises to the surface with this pipe, in a large loop.

But it is necessary to develop the micro-mole with the smallest possible diameter.
It exists for tunnels in macro-mole, like the tunnels under the English Channel or the Alps in Switzerland (50Km).
You have to make one, simple, drill, compressed air motor, and water arriving and carrying the loess.
In my opinion with a simple mechanical workshop, it is very feasible and to try.
It all depends on the motivation of the gardener for the greenhouse, especially if he spends a lot on heating now, which can motivate him to participate ?????????????

In my opinion if this loess is Chinese, like in China, liquefied with water, as described in English, by Chinese on the internet, then we should be able to thread for very little thin 16mm pipes, with a little imagination.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C5%93ss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6ss

The most recent cover loess dates from the end of the Weichselien or Würm and was deposited 25-000 years ago.
Loess land is known to be favorable for agriculture, in particular thanks to its water retention capacity. The loess regions are traditionally wheat lands, for example: the Beauce, the Plain of North Germany, the Loess Plateau in North China (valley of the Yellow River)

Loess often stands in either steep or vertical faces. [4] Because the grains are angular, loess will often stand in banks for many years without slumping. This soil has a characteristic called vertical cleavage which makes it easily excavated to form cave dwellings, a popular method of making human habitations in some parts of China.
Löss ist gewöhnlich ungeschichtet, unverfestigt und sehr porös, cann jedoch bei späterer Umlagerung durch Wasser eine Schichtung erhalten und wird dann Schwemmlöss genannt
Die poröse Structure erklärt sich wahrscheinlich durch die Grasstängel, zwischen denen sich der Löss bei der Sedimentation abgesetzt hat. Konkretionen von Kalk im Löss entstehen durch Lösung und Wiederausfällung der fein verteilten kalkigen Bruchstücke und werden als Lösskindl oder Lössmännchen bezeichnet.

Die Einzelpartikel im Löss haben eine vorherrschend eckige Form. Daher rührt seine hohe Standfestigkeit, welche die Bildung von Lösswänden an Flussufern, in Hohlwegen und die Entstehung von Ackerterrassen begünstigt


Easy to dig, therefore, except limestone vacherie sometimes!
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Did67
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by Did67 » 16/10/12, 14:41

No, this problem is specific to our project, located within the framework of a training establishment and having an educational vocation (visit circuit; the structure must serve as a basis for initiations / training)

On the contrary, if we want to exploit the heat, we would need to plan the installations to locate them near a structure with a permitting need for heat! (or as permanent as possible) Swimming pool, factory using hot water, retirement home (heated to 23 °), greenhouses ...

Unfortunately, planning has become a dirty word in the era of wild liberalism!
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 16/10/12, 15:45

for a drainer, in Canada they go down to 6 feet or 60 inches, almost 2m, large machine, and often limited to 1m to 1,5m !!!
A bit weak.
Otherwise significantly more losses over 4 months.

See the choice on:
http://www.indgravel.com/draineuse-tracteur.asp


A huge opportunity:
http://www.machineryzone.fr/occasion/fo ... -171.html#

A smaller one:
http://www.machineryzone.fr/occasion/tr ... on-tp.html
but only 1,1m deep !!

1,2m on a cheaper tractor:
http://www.agriaffaires.com/occasion/ou ... neuse.html

http://forum.grostracteurspassion.com/v ... 45&start=0
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 18/10/12, 13:01

another idea for storing from summer to winter: do not store heat or methane but store methanizable material

of course it will be eccentric to store the raw methanisable matter which would rot lamentably

but it is possible to pump what is in the methanizer in a deep cold tank and not stirred or the methanization will be very slow

well on this 2nd tank would still be waterproof to capture the methane produced

when there is no mixing the methane remains blocked and stops the methanization

in winters when more methane is needed than the regular supply of material produces, just stir the cold tank to quickly have a certain amount of methane ... and then pump the material into the cold tank to supply the methanizer hot

we always say that for a methanizer project we need a regular supply of methanizable material: this idea of ​​cold tank allows us to accept completely variable quantities: when there is too much we put everything directly in the cold tank
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 18/10/12, 14:06

I have the impression that the time constant, on and off, then on again with anaerobic digestion, is of the order of the week, like the thermal constant on a large mass.

And it is a question of recovering the production of each weekend by anaerobic digestion during the week ????????????????????
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by chatelot16 » 18/10/12, 14:17

of course the handling of the material to be methanised is slow: methane must be stored for a week or even a month with a plastic dome

the storage of methanizable material in a cold tank seems interesting to avoid storing too large gas: it also allows to accept irregular volume of material that a simple methanizer does not accept
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