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Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
fred
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by fred » 18/11/04, 23:18

: Lol:
It's very interesting to read you and to see you react.
It is comforting to see that you are all willing, and that, led or not led to make mistakes, the group ends up rounding off the angles and finally everyone learns from each other. : rolleyes:
If the will to do carefully things take over and become the common thread of the project, the results will soon be felt. : rolleyes:
Christophe, Adrien, Virgil (to name a few) by allowing everyone to question themselves, to formulate their own objectives, to actively participate in the development of the project. :)
Thank you: unsure:
Let us not forget that it is easier to destroy than to build, but with good will and good criticism, the limits are defined and we feel that each has its stone to contribute to the building.
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by Christophe » 19/11/04, 10:44

Adrian wrote:Sorry not to be up to you.

Some people need their vehicle all the time, and have very little time for it. How could they install the system taking the risk of being able to use their vehicle more?

Besides, we're not all engineers.

For the height and the level of ingenu you misunderstand ... most of the engineer are unable to achieve something with their hands .... and above all refuse to put their hands in "dirty oil" ... It is it's a shame but that's how it is ... and after all they weren't trained for it and it's a shame ...

Personally as an engineer ... I consider that I don't have to ask a subordinate what I do not know how to do myself (even if my subordinate knows how to do it much better than me) ... it may be for that I am not considered a "good engineer" ???

For the use of the vehicle it is true but olivier the well done on his car of "service" by taking advantage of the weekends and vacations. This is also the risk to take!
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fred
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by fred » 19/11/04, 12:21

econology wrote:For the use of the vehicle it is true but olivier the well done on his car of "service" by taking advantage of the weekends and vacations. This is also the risk to take!

In this regard, Christophe and Olivier, would you be willing to devote a little time to documenting the mounting on the ZX in more detail. As an application, a kind of procedure to follow might be welcome to allow others (who we love the risk) not to have to reinvent the wheel.
For example what about this electronic management, what are the last improvements you have made.
In my opinion, this would be a good platform to start a new kind of 'proven' retrofitting.
We would all save time and this time could be devoted to development.
In addition we would already consume 20% of - and pollute as much -.
I know this still represents a significant amount of work for both of you, but many motivated Internet users could benefit from it.
As a reminder, I read your TFE, the appendices ... and I appreciated the work. :)
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by Christophe » 19/11/04, 14:04

Personally I have nothing against shows the Zx, on the other hand Olivier is a lot more suspicious ... and he is right somewhere ... now we have come to the end of what we could do with our own resources ... and keep the dev. for us without further means, is also a mess ...
I need to talk to him about it ...

We found that the electronic management did not actually bring much ... 60% of the automations were finally shunted ... but we had to try to be sure!

In addition we would already consume 20% of - and pollute as much -. =? if you have 20% of consumption - necessarily have AT LEAST 20% less pollution ... on the Zx page there are all the figures ...
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fred
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by fred » 19/11/04, 15:50

econology wrote:Personally I have nothing against shows the Zx, on the other hand Olivier is a lot more wary ... and he is right somewhere ...

: Blink:
Ah well, wary, and ... he is right somewhere !!!
So where is he right?
Are you ready to show the ZX !?
Could you enlighten us?
There is something wrong with your reasoning.
In my opinion, or you do not know exactly what you want, or you know very well that you want, that it develops in making sure that you will lose nothing, glory or potential money or what do I know.
Unfortunately this sounds wrong, and under these conditions, as I have already pointed out, it is lost in advance because you will be bought at the first turn.
So okay, this is a choice that has already been made (even if not or little exposed before), but it is your choice and your right and as already said I do not blame you.
For the rest, we can talk about the years, it won't change anything.
In the meantime, the impulse will soon leave from another site and then what, the retrofitters will go to war, as in industry ...

:( A little disappointed anyway. : unsure:
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Adrien
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by Adrien » 19/11/04, 20:48

I think there is something wrong ... We are precisely on a forum with the title "Let's Unite", and your colleague "hesitates" to show us what you've done. What is all this for then? Do-it-yourselfers can share, but those who advance "really" have the right to keep for themselves? Is that why you are against the "sources for all" spirit?

Personally, if I can adapt the water doping on my vehicle (see one of the posts in the forum) I am ready to help all the people I could, and fully share my "discoveries".

I might not be an engineer, but I'm not afraid to do things. Last year I completely remade a combi vw while I had never touched a car, I knew nothing about bodywork ... ( http://songe.org/carrosserie.html )

Lately I got an engine in order to install water doping, I knew nothing about mechanics, I had never touched an engine (not even that of a moped). I read and reread everything I found on the subject, and so I completely dismantled the engine to redo it in its entirety, to be able to leave on a nickel base to install doping ...

I'm disappointed. :(
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by Christophe » 19/11/04, 23:19

There is nothing wrong or suspicious: you misunderstood me ... when I said that it was towards companies which would not want the process to develop and which would not hesitate not to ask blocking patents to counter the "legal" diffusion of the process! And in this sense we must not be naive!

It was surely not vis-à-vis experimenters wishing to modify their vehicle! But here is how to know who is really who ... that's all and it is the experience of Olivier who rubbed a lot of margoulin when he was a mechanic who makes him think that ... and on this point I can only be ok with him.

We will therefore show the Zx when we have agreed on the legal form of the project and we have already motivated a lot of people for an appointment. We are not going to make a personalized appointment anyway ...

But be aware that there is not much bcp more to see than what has already been presented on my site, moreover, it is starting to have bcp from other modified cars ... Do not take this Zx as an absolute example either!

Is that why you are against the "sources for all" spirit?

Did I say that?

Anyway if I can not convince Olivier (I remind you anyway that it was he who made the realization on the ZX), we will find other proto to present ....
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Adrien
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by Adrien » 20/11/04, 10:23

You said: (in conclusion to mounting on a zx):
"We reasonably think that we have reached the limits of development of the system today with our means of individuals. We are looking for industrial or university partners wishing to develop applications around water injection in heat engines. Because only industrial and / or laboratory resources will allow us to go further, to undoubtedly improve the results and in any case to move towards an understanding of the injection of water into heat engines. .."

I don't think I got it all.

From what I have read, you would be in favor of an industrialist taking charge of the project, because that would be one of the only ways to progress.

That's why I said that. I don't think that if one day a "nice" industrialist comes to develop the system, and leave it available to everyone. On the contrary, I'm afraid he wants to use it to make a lot of profits ... And that in the end it will only be accessible to a certain class of person: those who have money.

Of course next to that there will be small handymen, but they will not have advanced much, especially since they will be in total illegality because reproducing the patent of a large industrialist ...

I do not think that WE have reached the limits of development of the system today with our means of individuals.

In addition, even if an industrialist advanced the project, and left the sources available to everyone, how could we, with our private means, follow each other?

I do not understand what you mean there: "It was certainly not vis à vis experimenters wishing to modify their vehicle! But here is how to know who is really who ... that's all and that is it Olivier's experience who rubbed shoulders with a lot of margoulin when he was a mechanic who made him think that ... and on this point I can only be ok with him. "

Are you afraid that people will copy what you have done? And that they take your merit? And they are going to make sugar on your back?

Adrien
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"A man who knows how to make himself happy with a simple illusion is infinitely smarter than one who is in despair with reality." Alphonse Allais
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Misterloxo
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by Misterloxo » 20/11/04, 13:11

Hello everyone !

Adrien:
From what I have read, you would be in favor of an industrialist taking charge of the project, because that would be one of the only ways to progress.

That's why I said that. I don't think that if one day a "nice" industrialist comes to develop the system, and leave it available to everyone. On the contrary, I'm afraid he wants to use it to make a lot of profits ... And that in the end it will only be accessible to a certain class of person: those who have money.


I think you have to be realistic and agree on the objectives to be achieved!
For me, the main objective is to demonstrate to industrialists and government officials that the system works and that many ordinary citizens appropriate it. Thus, it would be the people who would put pressure on these powerful lobbies.
We ordinary people are the majority and we have laws imposed, restrictions that we do not choose, by a minority of leaders who always think they know what is good for us.
In fact, for the most part, they know what is good for them and their interests first!

This is why union is necessary to reverse this balance of power to our advantage. You all know it! It's the game of democracy!

If Pantone systems sprout like mushrooms everywhere in France, in Europe and in the world, the industrialists will adapt and they will propose the pantone or equivalent systems so as not to miss this demand from the people or rather from the customer !

In our economic system, everything is about "supply and demand".

Do you not think that if this system or equivalent is generalized by industrialists, it would be a great victory and progress for everyone and for the planet ?!

We will still have "old" DIY engines for a long time to quench our passion for DIY.

... and your colleague "hesitates" to show us what you have done. What is all this for then?


Personally, I understand it! Developing such systems is sometimes exposed to pressures ...
This is true in the US (Meyer, Al Francoeur, De palma ...) but also in France our beautiful democracy! Keep in mind the valenergol affair. Small company producing HBV and which was hit by customs who demanded TIPP on a non-petroleum product.
You should know that our sweet France is pushing to classify HBV (crude vegetable oils) as products subject to TIPP at European level. Fortunately and for the moment, Germany is taking the opposite path and promoting the development of this product as fuel.

Why does France play this role when HVB offers enormous advantages:
- zero worst carbon cycle ie. the carbon released during combustion was taken from the atmosphere by the plant during its growth.
- less pollution
- greater independence from oil
- revitalizing the countryside by developing this crop (less subsidies to give to farmers)
- the oil cakes from the pressing of the sunflower constitute an excellent food supplement for the cattle (instead of giving them animal meal or other protein supplements based on transgenic soybeans ..)

IM asking you.

Also, I think that the more prototypes there will be, the easier it will be to expose yourself.



Are you afraid that people will copy what you have done? And that they take your merit? And they are going to make sugar on your back?


Again, you have to put it in context.
Christophe is one of the pioneers of this system in France, and without him we would certainly not be quibbling here.
Who went to the US to meet Pantone? Who took the risk of making his subject of diploma validation on the Pantone? Who has been meeting farmers to help them retrofit their tractors? Who stayed on the job level because no one wanted to give credit to the results announced in the thesis validating their diploma?
Who offers to assosos? Who is the webmaster of this site? .........................


We may not 100% agree with Christophe. Personally, I do not agree with everything he said, but you have to give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and not get the wrong target.

In addition, if Christophe, after having spent several years working without pay on the Pantone, found a framework to do so by being paid, that poses no problem to me.

Finally, I understand your enthusiasm and your relative disappointment. But it is also up to you to be proactive and go beyond the proposed framework if you think it is your duty to do so. Everyone is free.

See you soon

MisterLoXo
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Adrien
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by Adrien » 20/11/04, 14:15

I completely agree.

Before we can wage war, we need to have a sufficiently large defense, and our attack must be powerful enough.

But there we have nothing, really nobody drives with water doping or a traditional pantone. And those who are equipped do not broadcast or almost not for fear? We won't do anything like that ...

If the industrialists take over the project in the near future, all that will have been for nothing. A maximum of people should install the system on their vehicle, even if it is limited by our DIY means, it would already be huge! And there we can really put pressure I think.

Adrien
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