Roll with cheaper natural gas

[jonule]

When I tell you that driving on gas consumes more electricity than driving in an electric car.

except the theoretical calculations, which all have their margins of error and their errors in themselves (the 200 bars are at the end but not at the beginning, and 200 bars are not compulsory either, ...), there it is speaking of small household compressors?
Do we really know the electrical consumption, by practice? nobody gave this info?

on the other hand, without counting on this possible domestic network, the large CNG networks which provide pumps for everyone 24 hours a day, how do they manage to compress the gas upstream? they don't use small autonomous home compressors, I imagine? they have more efficient compressors, right?

is your calculation no longer the same, citro?

map of CNG stations (April 2012):
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=fr&p ... 514a700d51

[chatelot16]

the advantage of gas over electricity is that it can go into your normal car without major modifications, so without having to change your energy source to 100%

that the methane produced replaces 1% 10% or 100% of the oil it works the same

given the weight of methane tanks it is even more reasonable to think of a very small tank which only runs the car for a small number of km each day, and usual fuel if you have to drive further

considering the price of electricity and gasoline, for those who have a methanizer there is more savings to be made by saving gasoline, than by saving electricity

the calculation is different for a large methanizer where DIY is prohibited, and where there is no official solution to use methane in vehicles, and where there is a subsidized solution to sell electricity

at a private individual no subsidized solution to sell electricity!

[jonule]

at a private individual no subsidized solution either to sell methane! =)

considering the price of electricity and gasoline, for those who have a methanizer there is more savings to be made by saving gasoline, than by saving electricity

the calculation is different for a large methanizer where DIY is prohibited, and where there is no official solution to use methane in vehicles, and where there is a subsidized solution to sell electricity

for a large VEOLIA GRDF type anaerobic digester, they have the infrastructure to inject into the network, and distribute it at the pump! (see map of CNG stations in France, link + high), and vehicles with GnV are on sale, so there is indeed an official solution to use methane ?!

afterwards, to come back to the% of fossil / renewable energies, there is a certain% of bio methane from methanizers, called bio-NGV incorporated into conventional CNG operated by GDF, which is called "natural" gas like uranium is said to be "natural" by operators concerned about their image, but this is an abuse of language, GDF's NGV does indeed come from the ground in mining, it is fossil gas.

this is why, as citro wishes to incorporate renewable electricity into the electricity network, I, for my part, also wish to incorporate bio-NGV biogas into the gas network.
moreover to speak of a network, as much to speak of ErDF and GrDF rather than EDF and GDF ...

[jonule]

For swallowtail:

apparently a compressor for wet biogas is also 80 bars:
http://www.novairindustries.com/biogaz/ ... du-biogaz/

to recharge your car, the "typical" compressor:
http://www.gndrive.fr/nos_solutions.html
the doc:
http://www.gndrive.fr/pdf/STATIONGAZ%201.pdf
we read: average energy consumption: 0.8kWh
to compress to 200 bar (we do not have to charge fully for performance, unlike electric batteries I imagine; =)
11.5h of charge is noted to fill an 84L tank, equaling 15m3 of gas (at how much € per m3?) for 120 km of autonomy.


from what I looked for, the price would be around 3000 €, if you want your personal station ... if not for rental:
"This for a cost of € 500 with a monthly subscription of € 30. Thus, individuals will refuel in one night.
The state tax credit covers the rental of the compressor (35 € / month) for five years and offers a premium on the purchase of the vehicle of around 2000 €. "
http://www.famauto.fr/page_gpl_gnv.htm

an offer from another distributor (WH2), from the famous phill compressor:
http://www.wh2.fr/index.php/nos-offres- ... able/g-n-v

other compressors:
http://catalogs.kompass.com/profile_FR6 ... 11416.html

http://french.alibaba.com/products/cng- ... -home.html

otherwise it's homemade DIY:
http://www.gaspoweruk.co.uk/history/ima ... gester.jpg

[swallowtail]

thank you Jonule etchatelot 16 and sorry to answer so late.

I summarize my data:

annual methane consumption - gas stove 21m3
- 3hp 30m3 generator
- motorcycle cultivator / dumper 3cv 30m3
- LPG van
5000km at 14lgpl / 100Km i.e.
14x240L = 3360L gas LPG per 100km X
5000km = 170m3 methane equivalent


total: 251m3 / year CH4

A methanizer (mesophilic) type infinitely mixed 1m3 can treat maximum 15kg COD / day at 37 ° c, and produce 100 to 200L CH4 / m3 of dijester,

Knowing that each decrease of 7 ° c divides by 2 the production of CH4, with an average annual T ° of 23 ° c of the methanizer allowing the methanization from 2 to 3Kg COD / D, the maximum possible production would be 3x200X365 = 219m3 annual CH4

The idea would therefore be to make a 1m3 underground and insulated methanizer (straw), and reheatable (solar heating) which could ensure the daily consumption of gas (59L / J CH4) in Winter, and increase production in summer (200L / j) and store it by compression after purification.

Compression issue:
the propane cylinders have a test pressure (Pe, Ph) = 30bars and flight 26L (13kg) or a flight of 792L of CH4 to 30bars which gives an autonomy of 14 days for the gas stove.

For vehicles, 30bars does not give enough autonomy (even with a 35kg bottle = 83Lx30b = 2490L or 70km).

the possibility is to compress to 200 / 250bars with a diving compressor, and to store in diving blocks 12 or 18 L declassified, which gives a min flight of 18Lx200b = 3600L or a vehicle autonomy of 100km per block.

To increase the autonomy of the vehicle, we could double the blocks, or use "buffer bottles" of which have a flight of 30 to 50L and Pe 300bars and use the "bottle" bottles or block 6l for the motor cultivator and generator.

Compress 200bar the summer to 0,5 or 1m3 / h (submerged compressor 3m3 / h multiplied / 6) with the photovoltaic, but that makes a sacred stock of diving block !!!!!!
Not easy for 30bars, because it is easy to find free 10 propane 13kg bottles ..... (10 bottlesx14D = 140 days gas range)

in short it is not won for vehicles if we do not have a sufficient amount of energy to compress the winter !!!!
to +

swallowtail

[chatelot16]

the energy to compress is not the problem ... even with the compressor driven by a gasoline engine powered by methane the proportion of methane consumed by the compressor is not catastrophic

the problem is really the price of the bottles for such storage, and the control of their safety

the propane cylinders have a test pressure of 30bar, but the operating pressure is 15 bar!

propane cylinders keep well because always clean propane is put in them ... with biogas any failure to purify will end up exploding if there are no controls on all floors

the carbon fiber and epoxy resin bottles are interesting because it will avoid the corrosion problem of the steel bottles, and will make any possible lack of purification less serious

I do not agree with your calculation: you seem to confuse l gas LPG with l methane ... no it is in kg that it is comparable ... or LPG gas is heavier that air and methane is density 0,5 compared to air

rather account the consumption of a vehicle in kg of fuel per 100 km and it will be identical in LPG or methane gasoline

it is also necessary to include in the calculation the loss of methane in the purification system, in particular to absorb the CO2

when we consume the methane in a generator without compressed storage we make the group swallow the CO2: no loss in a purification system

to purify methane there are multiple solutions: some have methane losses ... others reduce losses but consume chemicals, or absorbents with limited lifespans whose price is not negligible

I like gas factories but you have to be realistic, the first step is to make a methanizer to consume the methane without storage ... purification and compression will be the next step which may become profitable when all the energy will be more expensive

[Remundo]

An interesting video on the topic of CNG



Eric SORTINO / the 2V Knight of Bhyomethane

To watch on l'Sycamoree Announces 12 April 2014

[Remundo]

Eric SORTINO / Gas Catalysis continues its work:



in project a CNG station in the course of 2015.

Eric SORTINO is master craftsman specialist in gas vehicles on the Mont de Marsan region

[Remundo]

Good News on the side of Mont de Marsan / Eric SORTINO with the opening of a CNG / CNG station



Details of the inauguration of the 26 June here

[chatelot16]

1,1 euro / kg

to compare with the price per liter of gasoline density 0,7:

1,1 euro / Kg / 0,7 = 1,57 euro / kg

it does not save