How many nuclear power plant + to ride electric?

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bamboo
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by bamboo » 23/09/13, 14:53

jonule wrote:
bamboo wrote:There are periods when EDF straw neighboring countries to absorb our surplus nuclear production.
So put these kwh in EV batteries ...

we could also say "then as much produce less kwh during the day"; =)
which would amount to lowering overall electricity consumption is also part of the discourse;

Of course, but with nuclear power, production is not very flexible. Winter consumption seems to influence summer production ... (when we see the time taken to cool the Fuku reactor, we understand the problem a little)
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by Did67 » 23/09/13, 21:38

bamboo wrote:The major problem is that there is no trash in electricity: what is produced must be consumed the moment it is produced.
Otherwise it is the network that crashes, and especially the installations of individuals and businesses.


That's why networks are managed, with forecasts. And interconnected.

The laws of statistics, curiously for those who do not excel at it, are quite precise. So the forecast is pretty good.

But in fact, at the margin, there are a few MWh that go "in the trash" - are sold off. Like unsold products from supermarkets, when the department manager saw a little too much margin in his forecasts.

And that's why this "thrown" electricity, which is talked about a lot, represents absolutely nothing in the great masses. Otherwise, EdF would have already ruined itself by producing electricity which it sells at a loss! In addition to the cost of its production!

This is the "spot" market. Here, I have three slices of sausage left, wouldn't you want some?
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by Did67 » 23/09/13, 22:17

Illustration of my point:

See the following graphic: http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... ourbes.jsp

In red: actual consumption
In blue: the forecast.

We see that the difference is minimal (note, the bottom of the curve is not 0!)

It is this difference which is the subject of the "spot" markets. At the European level, there is a good chance that when a regulator made a mistake one stinks in one direction, another did it in the other direction. So they sell / buy these little spreads ...

It seldom happens that everyone made the same mistake. And then, a producer will sell at a loss so that we get rid of it ...

It is therefore the thickness of these lines that we are talking about.

More generally, look here at the volumes and prices of "free" exchanges:

http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... ricite.jsp

[compare to French consumption]
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bamboo
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by bamboo » 24/09/13, 08:53

The red curve is not the actual product, but the forecast for D-Day (while the blue curve is the forecast made the day before)
We can assume that the forecasts are fine, that's fine.

More and above all, it only shows differences in forecasts, but not at all the difference between consumption and real production.
We can very well know that we should only produce 50GW, but produce 70 because we are not able to reduce production.
That's the concern of France: production cannot be changed quickly, so we cannot keep up with demand (even if we had very precise forecasts).

Did67 wrote:Illustration of my point:

See the following graphic: http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... ourbes.jsp

In red: actual consumption
In blue: the forecast.

We see that the difference is minimal (note, the bottom of the curve is not 0!)

It is this difference which is the subject of the "spot" markets. At the European level, there is a good chance that when a regulator made a mistake one stinks in one direction, another did it in the other direction. So they sell / buy these little spreads ...

It seldom happens that everyone made the same mistake. And then, a producer will sell at a loss so that we get rid of it ...

It is therefore the thickness of these lines that we are talking about.

More generally, look here at the volumes and prices of "free" exchanges:

http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... ricite.jsp

[compare to French consumption]
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by bamboo » 24/09/13, 08:59

I'm not sure I was super clear, so I rephrase:
- We know very well how to predict consumption (this is a first step)
- But we do not know how to vary nuclear production so that it just meets demand.
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by jonule » 24/09/13, 09:26

well over a week certainly, in a power plant it is enough to handle the uranium bars by passing them from the reactor to the pool?
on the other hand not from one day to the next, take them out, re-plunge them etc ... I imagine that it is "time of potential risk"? useless ...
there are only thermal power stations (gas, fuel, coal) that can regulate well from one day to the next, almost instantly I would say;

Otherwise in terms of forecast EdF also knows very well how to estimate our consumption, often on the rise too, and only repay after ... the best loan at zero%! ...

-------------

to come back to the electric car, charging on a power outlet at night only appears "profitable" (for EdF) at night, therefore, in summer, in the off-season, but not in winter when the electric heating takes all the time. available power, going as far as possible blackouts.
note: in summer at night also the clims take a lot of power, with the rivers bordering rivers and the t ° C of water discharged ...

suddenly it's stupid, the electric car, a new "cause-invention", suffers from its ancient "cause-invention", electric heating!

so what is the solution?

I do not see any, apart from building new EPR plants, with a deficit in renewable energies, as always ...

while we are talking about the number of electric vehicles continuing to grow, would I like to know if there is a meter? ...
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by bamboo » 24/09/13, 09:52

jonule wrote:well over a week certainly, in a power plant it is enough to handle the uranium bars by passing them from the reactor to the pool?

Before removing the uranium bars, you must reduce or stop the chain reaction. Then it has to cool down.
I don't know how long it takes to cool down, but obviously it's more than 1 week (otherwise why Fukushima would have had so many temperature problems?)

jonule wrote:there are only thermal power stations (gas, fuel, coal) that can regulate well from one day to the next, almost instantly I would say;

The most flexible / quick to implement is hydroelectric power.
Hence the interest in making STEPs to store renewable energies (http://www.slideshare.net/OlivierDanielo/wws-france).

jonule wrote:to come back to the electric car, charging on a power outlet at night only appears "profitable" (for EdF) at night, therefore, in summer, in the off-season, but not in winter when the electric heating takes all the time. available power, going as far as possible blackouts.

The risks of black-outs occur around 19-20 p.m., but not at night (housing has already warmed up, household equipment and business machinery are largely turned off.

jonule wrote:note: in summer at night also the clims take a lot of power, with the rivers bordering rivers and the t ° C of water discharged ...

Same thing: it's true in the early evening but not at night.
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Re: How much more nuclear power plant for electric rolling?




by Janic » 23/05/18, 10:34

http://www.moteurnature.com/29384-voitu ... 000-bornes

State ambition of 600.000 electric vehicles by 2022

The idea is that by 2022, 600 electric cars will be in circulation, and 000 plug-in hybrids, hence 400 charging stations, one for 000 cars.

To this end, Bercy undertakes to keep the bonus for electric cars at a high level. Not yet specified, but we recall that it is now € 6000. Which would mean exploding the penalties, if the state had to pay 150 times 000 € ...
[*]


it is not the penalties that will only increase, but the prices at the electric pump. The financial windfall represented by gasoline taxes will also have to be found at the pump, that is to say that the terminals will only distribute heavily taxed electricity with systems exclusively adapted to them. It's all good for the nuclear industry, which justifies itself as such. However, the current low cost of electricity will not last long and its price will increase seriously in the coming decades and those who believe they will spend less will be paid for. : Evil:

[*] to be consistent, it would be necessary to count on 600.000 times 6.000 E, that is to say 3.600.000.000, plus the hybrids which do not deserve any less and 10.000 infrastructure terminals whose real price remains mysterious. Where are they going to find all that money?
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by izentrop » 23/05/18, 13:38

bamboo wrote:I'm not sure I was super clear, so I rephrase:
- We know very well how to predict consumption (this is a first step)
- But we do not know how to vary nuclear production so that it just meets demand.
In France, we know very well how to vary nuclear power, in particular to adapt to the intermittency of renewable energies (which are very expensive for users). http://www.sfen.org/rgn/nucleaire-flexi ... velables-0
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Re: How much more nuclear power plant for electric rolling?




by Janic » 23/05/18, 14:33

In France, we know very well how to vary nuclear power, in particular to adapt to the intermittency of renewable energies (which are very expensive for users). http://www.sfen.org/rgn/nucleaire-flexi ... velables-0
and one more!
This indicated site is a pronuclear site and its stakeholders are certainly not antis. No anti comment, or even only reserved, is presented. [*] "To conquer without danger, we triumph without glory"and nuclear waste is not the glory of these hot supporters, who probably reside far, far away from treatment or landfill sites. Unless they work in this part and their mere participation prevents them from biting the breast that feeds them.
which are very expensive for users)

http://www.lepoint.fr/environnement/les ... 1_1927.php

Green energies soon cheaper than fossil fuels

According to a study by the International Renewable Energy Agency, wind and solar will soon become as competitive as gas and coal.
AFP SOURCE
Posted on 13/01/2018 at 12:20 | the Point.fr
Fossil fuels cost between $ 5 and $ 17 per megawatt hour, the study notes, against $ 3 to $ 10 for renewable energies.
Fossil fuels cost between 5 and 17 dollars per megawatt hour, the study notes, against 3 to 10 dollars for renewable energies.

One step closer to the ecological transition for a greener future. According to a study published on Saturday, the costs of new energies such as solar or wind will fall so much in the coming years that they will soon be cheaper overall than fossil fuels. The International Renewable Energy Agency (Irena) also indicates in its study that other green energies are also growing rapidly.

"All renewable technologies will be competitive with fossil fuels in 2020," says Irena in this new study on the costs of green energies. Average costs of renewables should reach between 3 and 10 dollars per megawatt hour (MWh) depending on technologies (wind, solar, geothermal, biomass, etc.), when fossil fuels cost between 5 and 17 dollars per megawatt hour, note the study. They vary from country to country, according to energy deposits or regulations.

Already last year, the average costs of new projects for onshore wind farms and solar power plants fluctuated between 6 and 10 dollars per megawatt hour, with several records below this average. This was the case in the United Arab Emirates, Chile, Mexico and Peru in the solar sector. In wind power, projects are already regularly commissioned at a cost of $ 4 per megawatt hour.

More competition
The cost reductions are driven by the constant improvement of technologies but also by increasing competition with many companies that develop renewable energy projects, notes the study. "Turning to renewables (...) is no longer simply a decision made in the name of the environment, but, more and more widely, an intelligent economic decision", according to Adnan Z. Amin, managing director of l 'Irena, quoted in the press release.

The “best” onshore and solar wind projects could generate electricity at a cost of $ 3 per megawatt hour, or even less in the next two years. And this drop in costs is also observed for other renewable energies, notes Irena. Last year, projects in geothermal energy, biomass or hydroelectricity developed with costs around $ 7 per megawatt hour. Concentrated solar and offshore wind are also making progress and some projects that will be commissioned by 2020 and 2022 will cost between 6 and 10 dollars per megawatt hour, predicts Irena. "This new dynamic shows a significant change in the energy model", according to Adnan Z. Amin.


This for the cost only!

An old saying goes that " Paris was not built in a day"and ecology, renewable energies such as solar and wind power (which are not the only renewable energies) are still in their infancy. And for those with short memories, we must remember blunders nuclear which could only be established because France wanted its nuclear bomb at all costs and these plants had as main reason for being to manufacture fuel for this purpose. that a way to valorize the waste of the enormous thermal production (which would have boiled the rivers) and thus to justify what was hidden behind.
The only valid argument is that of intermittence due to wind and sun, obviously periodic.
The Hydroeolian can overcome this intermittence because the wind is permanent at sea, perhaps too much for pure wind. (We are still waiting for the first hydroeolians on our coasts!)
As for the photovoltaic photo, it is unfortunately extremely polluting in its manufacture and its reprocessing, currently, less despite everything than nuclear fuels which we still do not know how to avoid the risk of accidents for THOUSANDS of years to come and that at an enormous cost, there!
[*] it would be like waiting for a butcher to promote vegetarianism!
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