Vacuum transport: the key to long distance transport?

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bernardd
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Vacuum transport: the key to long distance transport?




by bernardd » 20/09/10, 11:49

A simple reflection shows that what is straining the energy bill of all fast and long distance transport is the friction of the air.

Indeed, below 100km / h, it is the mass, with the starts / acceleration, which makes the consumption: small light vehicles solve the problem well, taking up less space.

Above 100km / h, speed necessary only for long journeys, it is the friction of the air which prevails, whether on road, on rail or in the air.

The answer is simple and old: let's make a tube, kept under vacuum, and the problem is solved.

A large project has existed in Switzerland for a long time:
http://www.swissmetro.ch/fr

But started on the idea of ​​an underground tunnel, it would require large investments.

Why not do it in a simple tube? I had raised the idea in another thread, of course immediately meeting visceral criticism rather than thoughtful argument.

However, the first calculations show that the energy gain is obvious: let's take a tube 1m in diameter and 100km long.

Lower it to 10mbar of residual pressure, i.e. reduce the pressure and friction by a factor of 100, this would cost around 110kWh.

This energy corresponds to the gain on the friction of less than 3 vehicles traveling at the speed of a highway:
- we gain at the same time on the friction of the air,
- on rolling friction (metal wheel on upper or lower rail while being pessimistic, even maglev),
- and on the disappearance of non-useful stops, by the use of small vehicles automatically routed to their destination.

Without counting the gain on construction.

I am not the only one to defend this simple idea, which turns out to be old and shared:

http://www.et3.com/index.asp

Astonishing that this idea of ​​common sense does not make more noise (normal, it is the isolation of the vacuum :frown: ) in the media: no more heavy motorways or TGV lines. Tubes on poles would cost less than any rural road, but would allow traffic at 600km / h for less energy than a car at 100km / h ...

We can put solar panels on the tubes to power the transport and the entire electrical network.
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by Remundo » 20/09/10, 12:40

Hi Bernard,

you told me about this idea once ...

how to manage the entry and exit of vacuum / atmosphere vehicles?

What about an accident or incident depressurizing vehicles in the vacuum tube?

Mechanical resistance of the tube (1 m² vacuum in the atmosphere = a force equivalent to 10 kg)

In terms of energy, it's interesting, but the specifications are not only energetic.

That said, there may be technical solutions to develop, for example for goods ... until it is really - very - developed for men.

There remains the question of costs ...

It's a good subject for reflection : Idea:
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by elephant » 20/09/10, 12:54

If we were already trying to reduce the number of transports!

- "empty anti-return" purses (via website, of course)
- logistics thinking and training
- reduction in just-in-time flows, return to storage
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by Christophe » 20/09/10, 12:59

Yes it is a good subject for physical and mechanical reflections.

The company, especially for human transport vehicles, seems to me far-fetched ... already for the security and cost reasons given by Remundo. Not sure that the energy we spent on construction and that we spend on vacuuming is profitable ...

Then, with the progress made in aerodynamics and / or below a certain speed, the friction of the air does not represent the most energy-consuming part of a moving vehicle (making the vacuum will not change anything in the friction of the wheels ). Especially since the average speed is low on urban transport ...

Now for goods, there are already pneumatic networks of around 20 cm in diameter (transport of funds in particular) ... do they operate under pressure (pressure) or under vacuum (suction)? We see it for the transport of money in some large shopping centers and to avoid the robberies of petrol stations which have a high speed for example ...

I think it's more interesting to work on reducing friction with the air, like what we do with "sharkskin" on certain planes (we create a voluntary boundary layer). For example, it may be possible to ionize the air near the vehicle so that it rubs less on an electronically "charged" body? But will it be energy efficient? You have to start there ...

To be continued...

ps: reading the title of the subject, I thought we were talking about vacuum packaging for transport : Lol:
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by bernardd » 20/09/10, 13:08

Remundo wrote:how to manage the entry and exit of vacuum / atmosphere vehicles?


This is called an airlock, it is rather well controlled for less than 1 bar of pressure differential only :-)

Remundo wrote:What about an accident or incident depressurizing vehicles in the vacuum tube?


We know how to make airplane cabins without any problem, so a small capsule ... All you need is a reserve of air / 02 for emergency and possibly an isolation device around the vehicle, like an inflatable balloon at the front and in back. And if it is really necessary, drilling a hole in a plastic tube does not pose a real technical problem either :-)

Remundo wrote:Mechanical resistance of the tube (1 m² vacuum in the atmosphere = a force equivalent to 10 kg)


Standard HDPE tubes are made to hold more than 10 bars: to hold 1 bar, which is more is in compression of the tube, arched by definition, this is not really a problem.

Remundo wrote:In terms of energy, it's interesting, but the specifications are not only energetic.
That said, there may be technical solutions to develop, for example for goods ... until it is really - very - developed for men.
There remains the question of costs ...
It's a good subject for reflection : Idea:


Compared to the cost of any tarmac road, there is not even a photo ... So compared to a TGV track or a highway!
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by bernardd » 20/09/10, 13:11

elephant wrote:If we were already trying to reduce the number of transports!

- "empty anti-return" purses (via website, of course)
- logistics thinking and training
- reduction in just-in-time flows, return to storage


The big advantage of transport by tube is that safety is intrinsic (no meteorological risk, no risk of crossing animals or trees, no human risk, see line 14 for example) and that vehicle management can be automated.

In addition, we can achieve a mass per passenger that beats any other current solution.
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by Christophe » 20/09/10, 13:22

There are elements of response on energy balances here: http://www.swissmetro.ch/fr/projet/d%C3 ... ilit%C3%A9
Image

So no folichon ..... and costs here: http://www.swissmetro.ch/fr/projet/d%C3 ... co%C3%BBts

The costs and profitability of Swissmetro were examined as part of the main study. The total investment for an east-west journey from Geneva to St Gallen and the Basel - Zurich journey has been estimated at approx. 25 billion Swiss francs.


Or about 25 / 1.7 = € 15 billion to compare to the tunel under the sleeve (already too expensive):

Eurotunnel: broadly speaking, this project took over that of 1972 - 1975, of a double rail tunnel with a third service tunnel. This project has an estimated cost of 30 billion francs (about 4,6 billion euros).
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by bernardd » 20/09/10, 13:23

Christophe wrote:Not sure that the energy we spent on construction and that we spend on vacuuming is profitable ...


Alirs it would already be necessary to ask the question for a current route and a TGV line: do you have figures?

Otherwise, it is clear that the installation of 4 HDPE tubes on poles costs significantly less than the civil engineering of thousands / millions of tonnes of various materials.

Christophe wrote:Then, with the progress made in aerodynamics and / or below a certain speed, the friction of the air does not represent the most energy-consuming part of a moving vehicle (making the vacuum will not change anything in the friction of the wheels ). Especially since the average speed is low on urban transport ...


It is clearly a long distance solution: not urban, read the intro again :-)

The progress of aerodynamics does not change the basic law of friction, which is a cube of speed ...

One of the solutions is the concord which rises high: missed :-(

Christophe wrote:Now for goods, there are already pneumatic networks of around 20 cm in diameter (transport of funds in particular) ... do they operate under pressure (pressure) or under vacuum (suction)? We see it for the transport of money in some large shopping centers and to avoid the robberies of petrol stations which have a high speed for example ...


In these tubes, it seems that it is the air which provides the propulsion: nothing to do, it's just the opposite of the vacuum principle :-)

Christophe wrote:I think it's more interesting to work on reducing friction with the air, like what we do with "sharkskin" on certain planes (we create a voluntary boundary layer). For example, it may be possible to ionize the air near the vehicle so that it rubs less on an electronically "charged" body? But will it be energy efficient? You have to start there ...


It's called MHD, and it's clearly not available off the shelf.

The vacuum is known and validated. I put a precise figure for you: 110kWh to empty 100km of tube 1m in diameter at 10mbar. Then only compensate for leaks.

According to the figures I have, it only takes the passage of 3 vehicles to compensate for the expense of the vacuum.

The use of a tube allows at least the use of metal wheels on a rail, high or low: the gain in rolling is also a factor of 10 compared to a wheel, especially by lowering the mass at the same time.
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by Christophe » 20/09/10, 13:33

ps: there is a bug:

Christophe wrote:Image


These values ​​are HUGE. 465 kWh / km would give a consumption per 100 of: 465 * 100/10 = 4650 L / 100 ??

I hope that it is an error of scale to know kWh / passenger. 100km and even there we would be at 46 L / 100 ... then even if we speak in Primary energy it is more than 15L / 100 .. . there are big sedans in Switzerland but still ...

Or they are Wh / km.passenger, there it would stick to 4.65L / 100 (no EP)
Last edited by Christophe the 20 / 09 / 10, 13: 38, 1 edited once.
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by Christophe » 20/09/10, 13:37

bernardd wrote:Alirs it would already be necessary to ask the question for a current route and a TGV line: do you have figures?


The LGV East link cost 1 billion euros (approximately). It is much longer and has many more inhabitants than this project.
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