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Innovations, ideas or patents for sustainable development. Decrease in energy consumption, reduction of pollution, improvement of yields or processes ... Myths or reality about inventions of the past or the future: the inventions of Tesla, Newman, Perendev, Galey, Bearden, cold fusion ...
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 02/01/13, 10:19

Arf ... Definitely for Cuicui, the end justifies the means ... : Cheesy:

Cuicui wrote:
Ghandi wrote:«Example is not the best way to convince: it's the only one.
I wonder if there is any point in wanting to convince.


Wiki wrote:[Ghandi] was a vegetarian activist. He practiced rigorous fasts for long periods, to self-purify but also as a means of protest, influence and reform in others

Only Ghandi could have said if by this sentence he was not rather trying to make it clear that faced with the force of self-denial, trying to convince would be futile. But obviously that his altruistic route already gave the "tone" ...!

Obviously, in order to understand it, it was better to be benevolent and also not relegate to the background the cause to be defended (in favor of the means which then became an end in itself! Because suddenly the thread of the real meaning of the sentence was lost) Image
Even the one who lost all objectivity would not be able to convince himself Image
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Cuicui
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 12:23

Obamot wrote:Arf ... Definitely for Cuicui, the end justifies the means ... : Cheesy:
What end? What means? Can you be more specific ?
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by Janic » 02/01/13, 12:45

But my question was to know if the fact of wanting to convince, whatever the altruistic reasons or not (for example to fight to escape a feeling of loneliness) is a good thing, and if that does not concern mental manipulation. Shouldn't we be better confined to passing objective information, and leave the interlocutor free of his opinions without trying to influence him in one way or another?

Still it would be necessary that information is really objective, which is rarely (never?) The case. Each piece of information is a means of influencing the listener.
I think that indeed, as Obamot emphasizes, that the example (that is to say to do by and for oneself) is more effective than to want to convince by force of more or less valid arguments. Auguste Lumière said: "experience, unique source of truth"Not absolute truth but truth for oneself ... and possibly for others.
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by quartz » 02/01/13, 12:57

I have long sought a concise summary of all of this,
my conclusion is that, i am one of the people who know they don't know!
it makes me humble!
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Cuicui
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 13:12

Janic wrote:Still it would be necessary that information is really objective, which is rarely (never?) The case. Each piece of information is a means of influencing the listener.
To avoid influencing the listener as much as possible, any honest information must be accompanied by the usual precautions, such as "in the current state of my knowledge" or "under any reservation", or by quoting the sources.
Last edited by Cuicui the 02 / 01 / 13, 13: 21, 2 edited once.
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 13:17

Obamot wrote:Arf ... Definitely for Cuicui, the end justifies the means ... : Cheesy:
Cuicui wrote:Only Ghandi could have said if by this sentence he was not rather trying to make it clear that faced with the force of self-denial, trying to convince would be futile. But obviously that his altruistic route already gave the "tone" ...!
For Gandhi, this is understandable, he had an altruistic cause to defend and he needed, for that, the support of the greatest number. But for a Gandhi, how many manipulators not at all altruistic seek to convince by personal interest?
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Cuicui
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 13:24

quartz wrote:I have long sought a concise summary of all this, my conclusion is that, I am one of the people who know they do not know! It makes me humble!
I have always admired the way you know how to get your hands dirty and pay for yourself. I don't have your courage. I'm glad you come back to this from time to time forum.
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by Obamot » 02/01/13, 13:40

Cuicui wrote:
Janic wrote:Still it would be necessary that information is really objective, which is rarely (never?) The case. Each piece of information is a means of influencing the listener.
To avoid influencing the listener as much as possible, any honest information must be accompanied by the usual precautions, such as "in the current state of my knowledge"Or"with all reserve", or by citing the sources.

It remains only to apply this beautiful program to the perpetual movement to death ... : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 14:20

Obamot wrote:It remains only to apply this beautiful program to the perpetual movement to death ... : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:
Why not ? There is no taboo subject. Even an experience that we suspect in advance that it will not work (but still with a secret hope of finding the little thing that no one has thought of) can teach us interesting things. It would not be the first time that an unexpected discovery arises from a failed experience that some would tend to mock.
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by Cuicui » 02/01/13, 14:56

Obamot wrote:It remains only to apply this beautiful program to the perpetual movement to death ... : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:

In my previous answer I deviated from the subject. You are right to point out that it is better to avoid hasty and insufficiently verified declarations. But any info that can prompt us to experiment has its uses. It reminds me of the story of a trumpeter who heard that there was a musician who played with 2 trumpets at the same time. It took him many years to only manage to press 2 trumpets against his lips, and even longer to extract sounds. But he said to himself: "If the other can do it, why can't I?" When at last he obtained an acceptable result, he set out to find this famous trumpeter in order to improve himself, to discover that he had never existed, that it was a joke.
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