magnetic motors

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Remundo
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by Remundo » 13/03/10, 15:33

Projetheus wrote:As said Elephant, for many achievements the stumbling block is located in the point (s) of stop. Or how to complete a complete cycle without having to spend more energy than the system has provided.
Perhaps by taking the opposite view of the equation: "use of the energy supplied by the magnets" = "relative displacement of some magnets with respect to others"  "obligation to replace the magnets in the configuration of 'origin'. In other words, use this potential energy of attraction or repulsion with almost no relative movement.
The example below shows how one can draw a force between 2 magnets with a minimum of relative movement between them.
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Let us assume that the above balance is in balance between the strength of the magnets and those of the small and the large spring. If we remove the small one we obtain a "pressing force" of the same magnitude as F1. And if we use this same force F1 we ​​return to a relative equilibrium without having moved the magnets. It is thus this way there that I followed.

Hello Projethée,
It seems that this is the basic principle of the operation of your machine.

could you develop and clarify this passage?
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Projéthée
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by Projéthée » 13/03/10, 17:14

No Remundo problems.
The magnets exert an attraction on each other. This will depend on different parameters such as:
__ their size
__ their shape
__the interaction start distance
and many others. In my example we are only interested in distance; we have :
a) high distance = weak force
b) short distance = high force
c) zero distance = very high force but disappeared as usable potential since this potential is subject to the possibility of movement between our magnets. Too bad, that is precisely what is wanted.
Which leads to the obligation to work by relative equilibrium either:
1) establish an initial equilibrium F = - [F1 + F2]
2) replace part of one of the 2 forces in equilibrium (F2) by a 3rd force to which we will ask for work. So in the basic diagram, one can "remove" the big spring and put in the place a "load of work" equivalent in force to F2. Our balance is preserved but we now have a capacity for work. It is then necessary to develop a mechanism capable of working from a minimum inter-magnet distance with the smallest possible counter force F1 in order to recover the maximum of the attractive force of the magnets.
A more concrete example; your finger and 2 magnets in attraction on each side. If we put the camera in slow motion we observe:
__ finger contact
__ slight finger crushing
__ balance between the cohesive force of the finger cells and the crushing force of the magnets.
It is therefore potentially possible to use the "crushing" part of the force of attraction while just maintaining contact. The thinner the finger, the greater the usable potential.
I hope to be readable since this is indeed the basic principle.
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by Remundo » 13/03/10, 17:32

yes but from the point of view of energy conversions, it seems a little obscure ...

When the finger is crushed between 2 magnets, the system of magnets (which attract each other) loses magnetic energy while it dissipates by friction and stores it by elasticity in the finger ... ( normally the same energy if we consider valid the principle of conservation).

On the example of the balance, removing the small spring n ° 1 (which could be seen as a wedge moreover) amounts to releasing the potential magnetic energy (which tends to repel the 2 magnets) to go and store it in energy potential elastic in the spring n ° 2 which compresses more.

If I understand correctly, this "magnetic motor" can operate sustainably provided that the mechanical energy developed by the "liberation" of the magnets is greater than the decrease in magnetic energy of the system.

Is this your idea? : Idea:
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by Projéthée » 14/03/10, 11:34

Of course my system does not intend to escape (let alone call into question) the principle of energy conservation. With the example of the finger, part of the magnetic energy is effectively dissipated (even if this is not measurable at our level). From my point of view, a magnet is totally comparable to a "magnetic battery". Charged at its creation and dissipating its magnetic charge according to its use.
On the other hand on the example of the balance, I will not assimilate the spring to a shim because from then on the system is blocked which can only function by relative balance between all the forces at play. It is all the difficulty for the production. Introduce with the right hand a work load which punctures a force equivalent to that released by the left hand in the most linear way possible.
Finally, I will say that this motor can provide available mechanical energy equal to: Magnetic energy of the magnets - mechanical / heat losses - the "spring balance" threshold below which we cannot go down.
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by bernardd » 14/03/10, 11:55

As long as there is not a model, we will remain in sterile discussions ... Few can already understand from drawings and words: then to say if it turns out, it's more PMU.

With a model, you will know and in any case it will be a beautiful work.

And we will also know, if you tell us :-)
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by Remundo » 14/03/10, 12:12

So you should see your machine as a magnetic storage integrating a mechanical energy conversion system (Roberval kinematics in this case), the magnets losing their magnetization as the rotation ...

As Bernard says, difficult to conclude whether your concept works or not.

But indeed, if the energy / kg stored is important, and if it is easy to recharge (re-magnetize the system), it could be a serious alternative to electric batteries.

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by Pierre-Yves » 14/03/10, 12:47

Remundo wrote:But indeed, if the energy / kg stored is important, and if it is easy to recharge (re-magnetize the system), it could be a serious alternative to electric batteries.
Currently, we are around 170 Wh / kg (LiPo batteries). In the laboratory, Lithium-Oxygen batteries "spit out" 1700 Wh / kg (for a theoretical maximum value of 5000 Wh / kg).

If this system has a capacity comparable to that of Lithium-Oxygen, it would be won !!!
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by bernardd » 14/03/10, 12:58

Why immediately gamber and compare.

If he makes a model and in addition if it turns, it will already be very good: one step at a time :-)

Pierre-Yves wrote:(for a theoretical maximum value of 5000 Wh / kg).


Like wood pellets then, but 5KWh / kg is real: take pellets, then, right?

PS: in addition, the mass of a pellet tank would decrease, and we only take into account the tank half full on average: 10KWh / kg.
While for batteries, we cannot always recover all the energy ...

I wonder why so many subsidies are swallowed up on such complex subjects, when the development of a good domestic wood cogeneration on steam cycle with 30% of output would solve the energy problems for 90% of the earth ...

Ah yes, sorry, this would no longer be controlled by industrialists ... Is that the problem?
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by Projéthée » 14/03/10, 15:07

Of course, the problem is very, very largely in the desire for economic CONTROL of the market. If not, why so many regulations and evaluations / marketing authorizations that only very large structures can assume?
Try switching your car to electric and you will quickly understand.
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