Completion of engine test bed Direct Reaction test!

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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elephant
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by elephant » 30/09/09, 15:35

1) thank you :D

2) yes : Cry: . Should organize a "test camp", then. We come with the test protocols to be performed and the Rochefort bins.

Finally, if Camel will. :D
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by Christophe » 30/09/09, 15:43

I confirm that a doped tractor has excellent results in the "fields".

A 70 hp doped tractor loaded at the limit of stalling in plowing consumes less than 5L / h : Shock:

Without doping it should be between 12 and 14L ...

It's not what I read on the net, it's what we tested with Olivier from the ZX TD

It already dates from 2005 ... :?
Last edited by Christophe the 02 / 10 / 09, 00: 15, 1 edited once.
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by Flytox » 30/09/09, 18:43

For the moment the Direct Reaction Bench / Camel1 does not have a controllable load to make it carry out "plowing" cycles. : Mrgreen: or other more classic, reproducible as an automaton or a computer.

But if he wants to and finds it necessary, we can try to help him modify his bench in this direction. This could make a good project for the Econology association. :P

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sysgplus/
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by Other » 01/10/09, 06:01

Hello

b) load variations are needed around the high load. Apparently it is the diesel regulator which must "work", that is to say that it must regulate continuously to compensate for the variations in torque required for work. This is where the results are the most interesting.

We also notice this on a car
a journey through small hills alternating between ascents and descents driving has a maximum torque speed of 2500RPM in my case and a lot of pedal up and down slightly.

(I wondered if it was not a variation of the air circulation in the reactor which improved, or a variation of the fuel injected.
I tested a flapper on the intake which pulsates the air intake
that the inconvenience of being noisy and disturbing the depression (menbrane which goes on the injection pump)

the ideal to take advantage of a doping with water that would have a longer bridge (the driving in side proves it to us)

Andre
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by Capt_Maloche » 02/10/09, 00:10

HOP, I'm just going to follow :D
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by pb2488 » 02/10/09, 07:25

Christophe wrote:a) a STRONG load is required
b) there must be load variations around the high load. Apparently it is the diesel regulator which must "work", ie it must regulate continuously to compensate for variations in the torque required for work. This is where the results are the most interesting.

Bjr,
It is not complicated to create and vary a load on a test bench, there are plenty of technological solutions for this (friction, magnetic, hydraulic, torque limiters, etc.). I think that most engine manufacturers' labs have this kind of equipment, it's not the most complicated or expensive.
A test bench for an internal combustion engine where you cannot generate and vary a load, it does not have much interest.
Cdlt
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by Christophe » 02/10/09, 11:01

Think again pb! I am always surprised by your certainties ... well with the age they should fade ...

Do you know how often the load of a plowing tractor varies around its average power?

Me not ... but it can be above Hz ...

I doubt that test benches make variable load as quickly (because for the automobile for example, it never happens ...)
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by camel1 » 02/10/09, 11:41

Hi everyone, and thank you for your comments / encouragement!

I will try to respond point by point to your remarks ...

Christophe wrote:...
On the other hand: especially not to reserve this bench for doping tests, we know that doping gives little or no results on bench! ...


Mouarff !! I who launched this assembly precisely for doping!
Christophe, we have already had this debate on Skype, and I remain convinced that there is a protocol that must work on a bench, no doubt going beyond the beaten track of constant load tests.

Christophe wrote:... In short there is a lot of stuff to test!

ps: for pollution, the TCB of Maloche can already do the trick ... to start!


Certainly, lots of stuff to test, but first, we would like, Claude and I, to orient our research around the GP +

The logic of this thread is the pooling of gear and experiences of each other.
We would like (I dare hope) to put a little science in this bazaar, through experimentation and measures that make the results indisputable and reproducible.
This is the primary objective of this bench.

After, of course, there will be lots of things to test, when I see the 95 pages on the miracle MPG capsules, I tell myself that in an afternoon of testing on our bench, the mass is said ... : Cheesy:

When at TCB Maloche, whose thread I appreciated on the injection of water on a boiler, is it his, what is its availability?

elephant wrote:... Should organize a "test camp", then. We come with the test protocols to be performed and the Rochefort bins.

Finally, if Camel will. :D


By creating this thread, I considered this kind of questioning, everything is imaginable, I am in a welcoming region ... :D

Christophe wrote:I confirm that a doped tractor has excellent results in the "fields".

A 70 hp doped tractor loaded at the limit of stalling in plowing consumes less than 5L / h : Shock:

Without doping it should be between 12 and 14L ...

It's not what I read on the net, it's what we tested with Olivier from the ZX TD

It already dates from 2005 ... :?

Christophe, you mean you tested a tractor equipped with a GP already honed, which had already proved its worth "in the fields", and who gave nothing on the bench?
What was the test protocol?

Flytox wrote:For the moment the Direct Reaction Bench / Camel1 does not have a controllable load to make it carry out "plowing" cycles. : Mrgreen: or other more classic, reproducible as an automaton or a computer.

But if he wants to and finds it necessary, we can try to help him modify his bench in this direction. This could make a good project for the Econology association. :P


This is the very meaning of this thread, I feel here people who want to get things done, and I appeal to you so that we cooperate to improve the bench, in order to be able to make reliable and reproducible tests. :D

To sum up, today we have all the necessary basis:

- instrumented motor,
- engine brake (manual control for now)
- operational acquisition / control center for water injection

Our needs :

-A hydraulic pressure sensor, for the engine brake, such as:
http://www.agrotronix.fr/article-Capteur_de_pression_Hydraulique_0_250bars-83.html#

-A hydraulic motorized valve (to be able to control the load of the bench)

-An exhaust gas analyzer ... (Maloche? : Cheesy:)

More generally, and as I have already mentioned, our set-up is not honed (having regard to the number of hours required), therefore, two questions:

1 ° There was a time when Zac had given an express running-in method, I fumbled in his messages, but no way to get my hands on it ...
Those of you who have tried it (the method, not Zac! : Mrgreen:) would be nice to give back the info, thank you!

2 ° Given the engine model, not too recent, turbo without lambda probe, is there someone who would have a functional assembly (ground ...), with performances already validated on the road, and who would be ready to make it available for us to test on the bench?

Another thing, we would be curious to test the kit of Hypnow, Christophe?

pb2488 wrote:...
It is not complicated to create and vary a load on a test bench, there are plenty of technological solutions for this (friction, magnetic, hydraulic, torque limiters, etc.). I think that most engine manufacturers' labs have this kind of equipment, it's not the most complicated or expensive.
A test bench for an internal combustion engine where you cannot generate and vary a load, it does not have much interest.
Cdlt


And yes, nothing is complicated, just a matter of time ... our bench for example, it's just a few thousand hours of mechanics, electronics and programming ...
On paper, things are always simple, but after ...

As for the load, of course we can vary it, but with a manual valve -> not very practical.

Christophe wrote:... Do you know how often the load of a plowing tractor varies around its average power?

Me not ... but it can be above Hz ...

I doubt that test benches make variable load as quickly (because for the automobile for example, it never happens ...)


Certainly, and that's a bit why you surprise me when you say that we will have nothing on the bench. Indeed, our prototype on Didier's Merco gave very good results, on motorways at stabilized speed, therefore with very little variation in load, and nag loaded, say half-loaded ... we are far from "tractor in fields "and yet we had famous results.
What to say ?
The study we are carrying out on the bench is the possible gains in stabilized point on different partial loads and engine speed.

Assuming that the engine gives its best performance around 2500 rpm, it is therefore surely towards this point that we have the lowest gain margin.
And, conversely, in less favorable operating ranges, the most appreciable profit margins.

When all the experimenters say they have an increased feeling of torque at low revs, it means an improvement in performance at these points.
I remain convinced that this must be able to be demonstrated on the bench.

As for the problem of regulating diesel pumps, if someone could enlighten us on the control loops - in general - it would be useful to refine our test protocols.

Thanks again to everyone for your contributions!

A ++

Michel
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by Christophe » 02/10/09, 11:55

Yes for the reproducible protocol but not sure that technically we can do it: vary a load at X Hz around an average load, could we do? With variable X?

camel1 wrote:Christophe, you mean you tested a tractor equipped with a GP already honed, which had already proved its worth "in the fields", and who gave nothing on the bench?
What was the test protocol?


It is with the harrow plow, very heavy load, limit of callage (the tractor was called 2 times it is to say !!).

On the same surface. Cold weather. Measurement of consumption after end of work. I need to find the numbers. There is no possible doubt about the 50% savings in this case (very specific).

camel1 wrote:Another thing, we would be curious to test the kit of Hypnow, Christophe?


Hypnow or Copra or auto construction, that shouldn't change much ...

camel1 wrote:And yes, nothing is complicated, just a matter of time ... our bench for example, it's just a few thousand hours of mechanics, electronics and programming ...
On paper, things are always simple, but after ...


Hey pan in the teeth :) Well said!

camel1 wrote:Certainly, and that's a bit why you surprise me when you say that we will have nothing on the bench. Indeed, our prototype on Didier's Merco gave very good results, on motorways at stabilized speed, therefore with very little variation in load, and nag loaded, say half-loaded ... we are far from "tractor in fields "and yet we had famous results.
What to say ?


Well even on the highway you have slight variations in load (road, wind ...) less important than plowing but all the same: nothing to do with a PERFECTLY constant load of a bench.

My 2 personal experiences (in addition to the tractor above):

a) In 2004 I spent around a hundred hours running an old tractor (perkins 4-236 engine) on a bench (torque + constant RPM): peanuts result nothing could be explored! Except smoke reduction ...

b) In 2002 I did the same with a motor (6 in line saviem) of motorbike pump for irrigation. I had noticed on a measure 30% reduction but never managed to reproduce, so I resigned myself to the measurement error!

My advice: it is absolutely necessary to carry out "standardized" tests in variable load with always the same variable load cycle ... like the EURO test for consumption, but much more "fine"!

A hydraulic circuit controlled by a PLC should be feasible in your case! But again it's expensive ... in money and time!

We are coming to help you !! A bit of patience!
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by pb2488 » 02/10/09, 14:48

Christophe wrote:Think again pb! I'm always surprised by your certainties ... well with age they should fade ...

lol, you can say that you doubt nothing. I see you end up in politics living on your ideas ... or something like that :D in short....

camel1 wrote:As for the load, of course we can vary it, but with a manual valve -> not very practical.

I do not see where is the problem with the (frequency of) load variations, if tempted that there is really need (that still nobody knows / understands / demonstrates). Apparently, Andrée arrives at around 34% of eco with a car with the regulator at 100 km / h: the load should not be at the maximum and varied quickly.
There is no reason why we do not find a semblance of a test bench result.

Christophe wrote:A hydraulic circuit controlled by a PLC should be feasible in your case! But again it's expensive ... in money and time!

Varying a hydraulic load is quite simple, especially if you have already designed the engine brake system using this energy.
For example, with a solenoid valve and a pulse generator, you can vary a load and it all costs around € 200 maxi ready (we have that at work).
Cdlt
Last edited by pb2488 the 03 / 10 / 09, 08: 47, 3 edited once.
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