Mercedes 240 D from Didier

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 09/03/07, 19:23

Ah : Cheesy: I see that peace has returned.
Alright guys 8) it is much more fun to read, especially as the results are very encouraging.
I am disappointed that the test without reactor was not done, I was waiting to see what it looks like impatiently.
I hope that the Mercos can soon go up on a bench, even if it is you who make it.
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 09/03/07, 19:42

hello Peter!

Well no, you see the problem is that apparently, Camel is moving on a fixed bench (engine without car loaded with a gene as André has been doing for quite some time I think) ... So maybe n ' Will there ever be a follow-up with the merco it is a shame because we were starting to have a possible basis of comparison between the Pantone system and my idea of ​​injecting steam directly.
Note this is still in the range of possible with a fixed bench too ...
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 09/03/07, 20:09

Well yes I do not see what could prevent it.
Besides, I also don't see what is the problem with putting the car on a bench instead of just putting the engine like André did with his small 125cc engine in 100% Pantone.

I say maybe bullshit but it is the heat engine which is coupled to an electric generator in the case of the tests that André does?

Why not couple it to the car's wheels?

I don't understand how to deduce something from the generator.
If the engine speed is stable, the generator output voltage will also be stable, right?
So with or without a reactor the electric power supplied by the generator will be identical if the regime remains identical.

You should be able to brake the generator to a certain percentage and see if the engine can run the generator to a certain power.

Then make the comparisons with and without water doping.

That's it ?
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edutainment ozons
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by edutainment ozons » 09/03/07, 21:18

For the generator it must be used to have a variable load, the more you add a receiver behind (apparently from what is said above it uses electric convectors), the more the torque necessary for the drive of the generator must be high . You can thus test the engine under load (more or less depending on the number and power of the convectors behind the generator).
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Other
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by Other » 09/03/07, 21:22

Hi camel
This gives results despite the difficulties and this is to be expected especially with such a busy program!
The problem is the bench is not at hand and we want to measure everything at the same time and this is the error.
At the dismantling disassemble the tubing do a test and reassemble the panton tubing is already something heavy to do in the same test.
doing a different regimen also takes a long time.
In the priorities it is to make a continuous chagé regime as on the road in normal driving is at its maximum torque 2400rpm and full load
only study the variations in water and temperature and analyze which way to go for good performance.

The problem that you encounter is to be sure that during the whole test it consumes water the way you want and often even a test at stable speed on the highway I am never sure that the consumption of water is stable the only indicator is the heat output which tells me if there is too much water or that it is partially clogged and that it does not consume enough (although I stop to check if the tank drops, when it no more water, I see it on the engine.
Despite the fact that temperature is a rough way of measuring the flow of water, just as measuring the exhaust temperature tells me about the consumption of diesel fuel, it is true but imprecise. A cooler exhaust means less fuel injected into a diesel ( it's just a repair)
For the generator I only have this on small 100% panton engine, I have not done any test on diesel generator water doping and I regret it now it will take time to assemble my VM diesel engine 2 cylinders 2 liters and generator it is on the operating table and many other works come in the meantime .. (this also makes a big chunk in a garage while it is only on an experimental basis this small engine weighs close to 400kg)
For Michel good luck but limit your tests go to the basics
that of improving the operation of the reactor, without which you will burn your character, I am known for being tenacious and patient, but sometimes I find it long is hard.

Andre
Last edited by Other the 10 / 03 / 07, 06: 29, 1 edited once.
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crispus
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Re: First results ...




by crispus » 09/03/07, 22:11

Hello,
camel1 wrote:this bench does not allow to do the tests as I wanted, ie with load and variable speed.
It is indeed designed to operate at full load ... : Evil:


If I understood correctly, the bench works only at constant speed? I do not see how the bench could guess if the accelerator is fully depressed?

Of course it is unfortunate, but ...
For this last measurement at 1560 rpm, we saw the power at the wheel progressively go from 10,5 to 14,4 kW, hence this variation in Cs ...

... compare with the article on passing the tractor bench (05/03/07) quoted by Quanthomme.

To summarize, the bench test rather gave the advantage (torque reserve & power) to the standard model, but ...
: Arrow: on the road with a heavy trailer, the pantoned model won!

In short, the test bench protocol must be reviewed with a pantone ... A torque measurement "on the fly" will be distorted.

For my part with my mounting not yet rode, I have not seen any change during acceleration, but on the other hand in level I must gradually release the pedal. To the point of no longer having an engine brake.

In short, I should not have a GVI but a GVP (Progressive Steam Generator) : Lol:
Last edited by crispus the 09 / 03 / 07, 22: 17, 1 edited once.
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 09/03/07, 22:15

Hello André,
Tell me with your bench you could carry out a test without pantone just in vapor? (steam temperature around 70 ° C) Would that be possible?
Difficult to achieve?
what would be the problems except that it is not a diesel? it doesn't change anything anyway if you respect the steam temperature which i show you colder even if you can.

Goods.
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bolt
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Re: First results ...




by bolt » 10/03/07, 00:53

Crispus wrote:Hello,
camel1 wrote:this bench does not allow to do the tests as I wanted, ie with load and variable speed.
It is indeed designed to operate at full load ... : Evil:


If I understood correctly, the bench works only at constant speed? I do not see how the bench could guess if the accelerator is fully depressed?


Indeed, it is not at all easy to test partial loads
I explained it in this post
https://www.econologie.com/forums/un-gv-qui-maaaaaarche-t1612-120.html

about this essay
https://www.econologie.com/forums/public2/essaiconsojd4255.xls

It takes a very long time to stabilize the "grip":

a given speed is determined (in the protocol) (for example 1800 rpm) and at the same time we want such a load (for example 300 Nm of engine torque)

one person is in the tractor and only takes care of maintaining the 1800 rpm engine
while another person adjusts the bench braking wheel to get as close as possible to the 300 Nm engine torque which corresponds to 1221 Nm PTO (engine / pdf ratio of 4,07), he should therefore see 1221 Nm displayed

after 4 or 5 minutes of trial and error, when it is almost stabilized for these 2 people, they signal "OK"

and a third person has the green light to read the instant consumption read on the consumer device (which michelm tried to manufacture):
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post22326.html#22326
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post22380.html#22380

The address where you can get this flowmeter (whenever there are interested parties : Mrgreen: )
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post22571.html#22571

For camel1
Without an instantaneous flow meter, it doesn't surprise me at all that you want to abandon the dynamometer
because for partial loads : Cry:

The bench is used to prove a certain load which, seconded by an instantaneous consumption measurement device, makes it possible to calculate the specific consumption which gives a precise idea of ​​the yield obtained with the fuel.

do not give up :!:

bolt
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camel1
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Re: First results ...




by camel1 » 10/03/07, 11:35

Hi everybody !

Bolt wrote:Indeed, it is not at all easy to test partial loads ...


That's exactly it, Boulon, in the possibilities of the Carnot bench, there was a choice of "braking torque" (at the wheel) where we can theoretically adjust a torque and view the RPMs ...
We lost at least an hour trying various config to stabilize a regime, but apparently, the regulator of the pump came to put its zone, so that the RPM made the yoyo, and in these conditions, not even bother to try to measure a consumption ...

Without an instantaneous flow meter, it doesn't surprise me at all that you want to abandon the dynamometer
because for partial loads : Cry:

The bench is used to prove a certain load which, seconded by an instantaneous consumption measurement device, makes it possible to calculate the specific consumption which gives a precise idea of ​​the yield obtained with the fuel.

do not give up :!:

bolt


Well with regard to the flow meter, I would be interested in the testimony of those who play with this kind of commodity, because on our side, and after having gleaned a lot of info on this subject, Didier told me about the discussion he had with a guy who works in a diesel repair box (engines and injection pumps).
He said that they are equipped with test gear, well obliged to make their adjustments, and that for consos, they proceed by weighing ... :?:
It must be recognized that weighing has the advantage of precision, on the other hand, knowing instant consumption thanks to a flow meter would be the best ... that's for sure!

Crispus wrote:If I understood correctly, the bench works only at constant speed? I do not see how the bench could guess if the accelerator is fully depressed? ...
... In short, the bench test protocol must be reviewed with a pantone ... A torque measurement "on the fly" will be distorted.


Exact (regarding the protocol), in fact, you set a speed setpoint, the operator presses the mushroom fully, and the automatic bench gradually increases the braking torque until the speed setpoint is reached ... that is to say the opposite of what I wanted to do (choose a load, and adjust the RPM at the accelerator, just enough to reach the setpoint)

laurent.delaon wrote: You see the problems of development that we meet to make reliable and again Didier almost did not ride with it, and there, small failure during the test ... So if you do everything on a fixed bench you will not solve anything of these little worries which represents a significant step from DIY to industrialization, and which I and the people who experiment on our vehicle for a long time, meet and that you discover and will continue to discover little by little.

But do not lose heart, and continue on this path because your results are encouraging.

good continuation.


Hi Laurent! I appreciate your change of tone, a little bit of beauty in the heart :D

To qualify what you say, you should know that this is not, in this case, a reliability problem, but simply the consequences of the changes (however minor they are) of the prototype for these tests ...
As we can see in the photos, this proto has already a certain "lived", it is a little patched up, it must be recognized that it does not have the "finished product" look, precisely because it does not. is not...
These tinkering give certain weaknesses, and let's say that reliability side, it is a problem which one can tackle as soon as the drawing is stabilized ...
You deplore the fact that we were not able to do the "vapor ON, pantone OFF" test, me too, because beyond the controversy that may have existed between us, I see a certain interest in it, for the analysis of what's going on in this mess.
I think (and I'm not the only one apparently) that the supply of steam has consequences on several levels, and that according to the method, we just obtain a depollution, or a reduction in Cs, see, as André says , if the dosage is wrong, overconsumption!
But I do not drop the idea, because this test remains relatively simple to do (with the base material problem near the practical realization : Cheesy: )
The test protocol, as it was planned, is still relevant, these are the test conditions that weren't ... so that's what we have to play on.
And I retain the idea of ​​André to chain may be less test config at a time, but, as you suggested, with series of tests in the same conditions, to refine the result statistically ...

But that, only with a test bench, because in real conditions as we experienced them on Wednesday, a month of preparation and a day for 17 measurements ... : Shock: You know what I mean... : Lol:
My mistake was to want to gather a maximum of manipulation on this day, to make the most of the opportunity ... and have a good harvest of results and info ...
Well, the picture is not completely black, we will undoubtedly have some new information by accelerometric and vibratory analysis, just for that, it was worth getting high ...
Soon beautiful images ... :D

A + + +

Michel
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camel1
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Re: First results ...




by camel1 » 11/03/07, 14:58

Hi Bolt!



I just (re) take a look at your xls, very interesting, but I think I saw a mega ball in the calculation of special consos. who jumped at me because I had to calculate it myself ...
This is column I, on the 1 sheet. We have the formula I = G / 0,845
: Shock:

I think it should have entered I = G * 0,845 (the good formula is also noted in the line 22: = l / ch.hx 0,845 !!!)

Otherwise, it would mean that the GO has a density of 1,183 ....

I did not peel the whole document, but I think it might affect the generated graphics ...

Great job anyway, and in the light of what we have just experienced, hat! You must have shit hat circles to do these tests!

See you soon !
Michel
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