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Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
Bruno13
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by Bruno13 » 23/11/04, 14:12

Hello everybody

I post on this thread because I already tried to gather people on a study project of the Pantone generator and these people are a little scattered in France.

Short presentation :
I am an associate professor of Mechanical Engineering (modeling, design, manufacturing, automation, materials, ...). I teach at the IUT of Rouen, in the Physical Measurements, Thermal and Energy Engineering and Chemical Engineering departments. So I have at my disposal a wide variety of devices that allow you to measure anything and everything. I also have a Citroën turbo-diesel engine, installed on an equipped engine test bench (torque, power, temperatures and pressures at various locations, consumption, CO2 emission, noise, ...). It is available and I would like to equip it.

The people I am in contact with are:
- a private individual, experimenter and handyman, who has already mounted several Pantones including one on a Renault 6. He is not very available but he is apparently ready to communicate his results.
- 2 friends who studied with me at the ENS de Cachan (Normale Sup '), including one who put me in touch with a teacher from the IUT Mechanical and Productive Engineering of Aix-en-Provence. The latter has already tinkered with a mower engine last year and intends to tackle a diesel engine very soon.
- 2 teachers from my IUT, a mechanic and a thermician specialized in combustion.

I logically proposed to them to join the national group and I think that they will appear soon.

We have 2 goals at the moment:
1) Prove * irrefutably * that the Pantone generator improves the functioning of internal combustion engines and if possible quantify this improvement. By doing this properly, we could interest potential partners, or at first communicate to make ourselves known, quite simply.
2) Understand exactly what is going on around the magnetized bar. What are the gases present, their proportions, their influence ...? It would thus be possible to optimize the operation of the engine, especially in use at variable speeds (typically, an automobile engine).

For the moment, I have quickly browsed through various documents, mainly those made available by Quanthomme. If some could give me details on this, it would allow him to go faster. I would like to equip the Citroën engine but starting with a solid foundation. I don't want to rediscover what has already been done. My goal is to use it to move forward concretely and significantly.

That's basically the information I can give at the moment. It is always possible to contact me for more details. Prefer also the email to forum, I'm not sure I have time to check it often.

Good day to all.

--
Bruno
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jcf
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posts: 40
Registration: 21/11/04, 22:58




by jcf » 23/11/04, 14:55

Hello!
Good and well I come back to make a long post because I can't stop thinking about it since I read Christophe's email!

First some thoughts:

- I do not think that the pantone can develop if access to information is chargeable. We were told about a lot of revolutionary engines, they remained unknown to everyone because their inventors wanted to charge for information and the lobbies that are opposite are very powerful. If we look at the PMC, it developed from the moment Pantone made the information free and thanks to the relays of many websites whose information is also free (quanthomme for example). In addition to meet in an organization where information is only accessible by paying and this around an invention already quite questioned would risk passing us off as a sect.

- All the pantonizers-do-it-yourselfers have amassed a knowledge which is sparse. They do not dare to communicate too much over it for fear of being stung their ideas by someone who would like to resell them. Today, for the newcomer who wants to ride a pantone, you have to go through tons of web pages and forums to be able to deduce from it a set of possible assemblies that he must evaluate one by one to possibly one day manage to retrofit his engine! We must be aware that if today a manufacturer were interested in pantone, he would be in an incredible position of strength, because he only needs to mobilize a research team for a few days to take stock of what we have spread everywhere on the web, and could probably easily appropriate some of the ideas. (by the way, the manufacturers' lack of interest may simply be from the fact that it does nothing for an HDI engine, and that they have no great interest in making our old carts last, no ?).

- We don't need a lot of research right now. Finally, if we look at the number of people employed in the development of the internal combustion engine since the time that this one exists, the progress observed in a century is not all the same amazing ... In fact, what interests us above all , it is to know which solutions work, with which yield, and without polluting (in fact, we always talk about the pantone which does not pollute, but its very high level of magnetic radiation is not it super-harmful for humans who are next?).


In relation to these 3 reflections, I am convinced:

- That we need a tool for accumulating our scattered knowledge;

- That we must find a way to protect the information by warnings of the GNU public license type (if lawyers participate in the group, it would be nice if they light our lanterns on it ....) in order to avoid to see our patented ideas and to make everyone feel safe when giving their own;

- That this tool must be informable by all, but that a 'hard core' is responsible for validating the scientificity of the information entered and for structuring the information in the tool;

- That to have a maximum audience (since our goal is to save the blue ball) this tool must also host the knowledge of pantonists using languages ​​other than ours (with term may be the translation of certain articles of one language to another by the most multilingual among us);

- That this tool must manage different levels of confidentiality, so that those who have done effective editing but do not want to be disturbed can still give their feedback;

- And finally, we should be able to manage resources, ie who knows what to do and proposes for what. I'm already less sure that everyone wants to fill in an open database, but perhaps there would be a way to manage this with confidentiality levels, so that the provider of a resource can decide anonymously if yes or no he wants to access the request of another, or of the 'hard core' (we can imagine that some of us have access to test benches for garage mechanics on weekends, for example, or that another has skills to improve the central tool, etc.).


=> Typically, compared to these functions, it seems to me that the model of the wiki encyclopedia (see for example; http://fr.wikipedia.org/) is a starting model, because everyone can add an article to it , if the article seems crappy, others can make a reservation on the article in question, etc.
This would allow us to cut the pantone into sub-systems, and that everyone could come and add their expertise on each component of the pantone.



In addition, it would be necessary to be able to mark / structure the information according to its state:
- outstanding question
- theoretical answers
- tests carried out
- measured results
or something like that. I'm not sure if it should be included in the encyclopedia part or in the part forum. Let's say that in fact, what would be interesting to be able to do is that for example I ask a question to the community and therefore my post / and / or my article have a status of "work in progress / question in suspense ".
I get answers with different solutions and the status is always "work in progress / theoretical answers"
I test the solutions, measure the results, publish them on the forum and / or encyclo, and therefore the debate is closed and the status is "solution / results".

What do you think? It allows for each thread to clearly identify the question and the solution found to this question.

What would be nice is that it works in parallel on two levels: feeding a wire on the forum and enrichment of the encyclopedia on the key stages, ie on questions / possible answers / solution chosen from among the possible answers and its results, knowing that the other possible answers remain legible and therefore are not lost for someone else.

Why all of this? Because for a year I have seen lots of super interesting proposals, but I do not know if someone has tested them, and what conclusions he draws from them (for example, here was proposed a very clever bubbler, someone has he tested, what results ?: http://gerald.abt.free.fr/ecolo/moteur-a-eau.htm )


So, I think that if everyone can add their knowledge to the base, it will progress very quickly, and that we will therefore have increased influence. Therefore, there is no reason why we should not be able to obtain private or public subsidies to indeed feed a central association which would deepen and animate research. (=> one can very well imagine that this association equips itself among other things with mobile equipment (truck) and crosses the regions of France and Navarre to test the most interesting assemblies!)

I say private subsidies, because I think that from the moment when the rules will have been clearly defined, and that it will be clearly specified everywhere that the knowledge generated here is of the open source type, there is no reason so that manufacturers do not start allocating resources to our research, even if they add their own technical refinements to it. I'm thinking for example of Apple's participation in the Unix kernel, Apple which then adds its own functionalities in OS X.

I think that fundamentally our project must work thanks to subsidies. Once we are sufficiently federated and numerous, we can even make a petition to ask the government / ADEME that funds be allocated to this research.

Likewise, the call for contribution at the discretion of everyone to run our organization seems to me to be a good thing, but I think that the information delivered should not pay according to the financial contribution of each (let's not forget the considerable impact that this project has on the inhabitants of the African continent who have recovered all our old cars ....).

That's it, I think that's about it for today :P
Sorry ... (as Denis Guignol would say)
Jean-Christophe

PS: the time that I write this post, the post which passed just before confirms thoroughly what I have just said: need of legibility to add academic research to us ...
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snono
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posts: 22
Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 23/11/04, 15:24

- Wikipedia: you're absolutely right, it's a good media for information, you should see the different modules that Wiki offers.

- You're also right for the free access to information, it's obvious.

And overall, I agree with you.

Bruno13, you seem to benefit from a lot of knowledge and experience, it will be useful.
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fred
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posts: 11
Registration: 11/11/04, 18:30




by fred » 23/11/04, 15:40

... good ... good ... good ...: rolleyes:
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 23/11/04, 15:48

... as you say ... :D
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LibresEnsemble
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posts: 8
Registration: 23/11/04, 13:45




by LibresEnsemble » 24/11/04, 14:32

Effective communication project on the subject

Do you know what spam is ??? no ?
it's simple it's when you receive unsolicited emails to buy this or that product ... for example "do you have one too small? ... then click here it's good for you ..."

Here it is not spam ... it is to inform and not to harass ... I started this morning with this email that I sent to newspapers, environmentalists, to the site of government on the environment, TV channels, on Nicolas Hulot's site ...

Do the same for example once a month (no more) to addresses you find on the web. Everyone must be informed (TV, local newspapers, associations ... friends ...)

CIRCULATE INFORMATION

When you post the email, send it to several at the same time ...
for example for newspapers or TV place the addresses one beside the other in order to make compete. For example if a newspaper realizes that its competitor received the same email ... then this will be a source of additional motivation of interest see article publication ...

A LITTLE RULE

Do not copy paste the message below ... resume it, modify it ... depending on the news of the moment ... the link to the article from yahoo for example ... can be changed with more info recent ...

The trick is to do like the Arab phone ... except that there the overall meaning of the message will be preserved.

Unity is strength ... COMMUNICATE ... attract attention ...

Here does not appear bold and colors to highlight the important elements ...



-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------
HERE IS THE MESSAGE (in two parts)
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------

Sorry for the mailing list but it is important

What is peakoil?

that too should interest you

For non-connoisseurs ...
http://www.lesvertsguebwiller.com/PETROLE% ...% 20la% 20fin.htm

Thanks to Christian Weiss for this article

Official site
Last little info related to my previous email
http://www.peakoil.net


French ASPO contact: jean.laherrere@wanadoo.fr
He will answer you quickly. I have already written to him and he is not an amateur.

[...]
Jean Laherrère worked for TOTAL for thirty-seven years in a variety of successively more responsible roles encompassing exploration activities in the Sahara, Australia, Canada and Paris. Since retiring from TOTAL, Mr. Laherrère has consulted worldwide on oil and gas potential and production. He has served on the Society of Petroleum Engineers / World Petroleum Congress ad hoc committee on joint definitions of petroleum resources and the task force on “Perspectives Energie 2010-2020” for the Commissariat Général du Plan.
[...]

http://www.dossiersdunet.com/auteur.php3?id_auteur=121


hence my previous email below

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Hello,

[...]
the Commission wishes to double the Union's research and development budget to 30 billion dollars for 2007-2013 compared to 17,5 in 2001-2006
[...]

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/041124/202/45l6t.html

Very good but there is a solution at present tested by hundreds of individuals which is really very simple and which would require much less budget and which would be much more effective ...

And I don't want people to answer me "if it worked, it would know ..."

it works and that knows ...

try yourself to go out in the field to meet these people who are experimenting with this solution at their lowest cost ... some have even been visited by an industrial group from the automotive world ...

I would just like you to go out of curiosity to take a little tour on the side of these handymen ... there is one who made it his subject of defense for his engineering degree from ENSAIS ...

http://quanthomme.free.fr/pantone/martz ... _Martz.htm

Examples of achievements
http://quanthomme.free.fr/pantone/FrancePMC.htm

Other achievements
http://quanthomme.free.fr/pantone/usa/PMC4.htm

What it works with
Fuel + water (can go in proportion 20% + 80%)
the fuel can be rapeseed or any other ...

Small note: if rapeseed costs 4 times more expensive to manufacture than petrol or diesel and much as the mixture requires 4 times less fuel on average, the profitability is therefore equivalent ...

We have to bombard everyone with a mailing campaign ... and send by mail inviting people to connect to this site ... we have to move this system forward ... it's really serious and I weigh my words .


Technical contacts:
2 engineers:
- Jean Louis Naudin -> JNaudin509@aol.com
- Christophe Martz author of the report -> christophe_martz@hotmail.com

Christophe Martz's report has been downloaded 1500 times in two months ...
https://www.econologie.com/rapport-d-in ... es-93.html



Forum experimenters
https://www.econologie.com/forums/


Sincerely
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------
END OF MESSAGE
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------

It's up to you !!!
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Christophe
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Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
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by Christophe » 24/11/04, 20:13

The use of a grouped email is nice to reach a maximum of people ... but beware this can annoy some.

For the form, it's good but a little long (well why are there 2 parts?).

By cons 2 remarks:
1) avoid putting our emails (Jean Louis and me) in a spam email ... viruses go so fast ...
2) it would be just right not to send the password by email / spam ... indeed I put this system to keep people loyal and keep them informed afterwards (those who just want the pass unsubscribe quickly ) .... but the pass is given freely like this, loyalty is made impossible ... It is therefore better to put rather the link to the report page ... In addition I change the pass quite regularly (all 1 to 2 months) ...

ps: by definition spam is an unwanted email for commercial purposes ... in our case this is by no means the case ... although confusion is often made.
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LibresEnsemble
I discovered econologic
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posts: 8
Registration: 23/11/04, 13:45




by LibresEnsemble » 25/11/04, 11:11

I understand sorry for the log and pass you can delete them in the database ... no bp

It is in two parts because at the beginning I had sent the email talking about the Pantone system ... and then I added the reason why it was absolutely necessary to accelerate the movement ...

It is true that we can group everything into one ...

For your emails ... oops ... you just have to remove the @ and replace it with for example '_aro_' so the systems which scan the network cannot recognize an email, that too you can change it in base I think...

For this email it is a first approach ... it will be necessary to make a real text accompanied by regular news which fall on 'the peekoil (a real disaster for the economy - a blessing for the environment)'

For recipients who are likely to get angry ... once a month is enough ... and change the addresses from time to time ... it is also not necessary to send a mailing to 50 people. .. it's too restrictive for the sender ... 10 different every month is not bad ... the goal is to do like viral marketting ... some will spread the message because sensitized anyway by the rise in fuels ...


To avoid being cataloged as a Hoax always accompany the email with a list of titled links

"YOU TALK IN the newspapers on TV, on the radio ..."
- http://www.radiofrance.fr/chaines/france-c...fusion_id=2
- http://info.france3.fr/dossiers/monde/4862698-fr.php
- http://www.lexpress.presse.fr/info/economi....asp?ida=428814
- http://www.nouvelobs.com/articles/p2063/a241470.html
- <a href='http://www.france5.fr/cdanslair/006721/41/118312.cfm' target='_blank'>http://www.france5.fr/cdanslair/006721/41/118312.cfm</a>
- http://www.autocadre.com/Le-peak-oil-est-a...ve--news102.php

"PRO talk about it"
ASPO, an association founded by retirees of big oil companies ...
denouncing the overestimation of reserves, a drop in production of which is inevitable ...
as you may have already mentioned, followed by an increase in the price at the pump ...
http://www.peakoil.net

"Net folders"
- http://www.transfert.net/a9643
- http://www.transfert.net/a9640

The web is good, the web + emails is even better ...

Thanks in any case for this site ... good luck ...
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Joe Flachy
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posts: 14
Registration: 21/11/04, 15:41
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by Joe Flachy » 01/12/04, 11:13

Hello, I would like to make some clarification on my post from the last time:

When I say that the pantone must remain "in the shade" it is obviously not that I think that it should not be delivered to the public, on the contrary! But word-of-mouth (and mail-to-mail) apparently works more than well, and we can hope that the people to whom the information is supplied make good use of it.

On the contrary, setting up an association (I myself proposed one on the e-2cv site, a short time ago, but I changed my mind ...) seems to me increase the risks: "sharks".

In addition, what can an association really bring? I think the system at ALREADY has proven itself, it works, do we really need to know HOW it works? (and I'm a science student, so it's deeper than you might think :) )

It seems to me that each engine will need a specific reactor, just because of the free space under the hood, for example, so it is up to each "pantonizer" to adapt it.
By cons, gather the info, yes, I agree: rolleyes:

With enormous admiration,
;-) Flachy Joe ;-)
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