The energy transition law or the cart before the horse.

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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by moinsdewatt » 22/04/18, 14:31

bardal wrote:Bof ... hydro-electric over the water ... We could try on the Loire (well, if the worshipers of the "last wild river" accept it); in total, with dams throughout the middle course, we would manage to produce the equivalent of a slice ... plus some ecological damage ...

...


There will be no dam project on the Loire.

confers Sivens, and Notre Dame des Landes.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Bardal » 22/04/18, 17:56

Janic wrote:
... / ...

Do-it-yourself (at the level of a village, town or regional community) is the future with a more coherent energy mix than depending on a centralizing system that wastes by its energy losses. However, and this is inevitable, the population must and will have to adapt to this new model, even if that implies a change of "comfort" that is too easy.
But last but not least, we must think no more about a selfish society affluent, but to see at the global level if our way of life and overconsumption is and will remain viable with a population well over 10 billion without causing a revolution of the less fortunate who are already and will be the most numerous on this earth.


Tinkering at the local level only leads to "yo-yo" functioning unable to meet needs; either we don't have enough energy, and it's the balack out, or we have too much and we don't know what to do with it. The only way out is to be connected to a large network which guarantees the permanent supply of electricity; even at the level of a country, it does not work, the Germans are having a cruel experience of it at the moment. Moreover, no community has implemented it, and for good reason. This story of "localized production" is one of the myths developed by renewable energies; these are only myths, on the contrary the network must be strengthened at a cost which is by no means negligible (several tens of billion euros in Germany, which however only has a quarter of its production in renewable energies). ).

Finally, the question of the "less well-off" at the global level is indeed essential; we will have to get out of this situation, on pain of serious disturbances (to put it mildly). There are two ways to solve the problem: either we tend towards a generalization of the situation of the most deprived (therefore we drastically restrict the "rich"), or we tend towards the situation of the best endowed (and we improve the situation of " less well off "); something tells me that the first option will not be accepted by anyone (the Chinese rode bicycles massively 20 years ago, today ...) and would be the first cause of major unrest ... We only have left '' to find a bearable and acceptable compromise, with as regulatory factors 1- energy and productive efficiency 2- a significant reduction in GHG emissions ...

But if some people want to exclude themselves from the community and choose self-sufficiency, personally, that doesn't bother me at all; but that they do not beg in addition to the butter, the money of the butter, the support of the energy network and the subsidies for PV and wind ... Let them assume! Besides, what prevents them?
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Ahmed » 22/04/18, 20:04

There is no doubt that many people, and probably a majority, are now aware of waste and other negative aspects of our operating model, but this only translates into cosmetic reforms, as the determinisms in place continue to sag. 'Express. Simply, "strong signs" are addressed to the populations so that the secondary modifications are enough to divert their attention from the pursuit of the essential.
It is indeed completely vain to situate the problem on the moral ground: it is not because of particularly vicious people (even if they exist!) That the evil progresses, but because of determinisms of which we are all agents to varying degrees, and with the best feelings in the world.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Janic » 22/04/18, 20:25

Tinkering at the local level only leads to "yo-yo" functioning unable to meet needs; either we don't have enough energy, and it's the balack out, or we have too much and we don't know what to do with it.

You are thinking here about what was done decades ago by relying solely on wind power like solar panels. There is more and more diversification of these RES and this will continue in this direction there.
The only way out is to be connected to a large network which guarantees the permanent supply of electricity; even at the level of a country, it does not work, the Germans are having a cruel experience of it at the moment. Moreover, no community has implemented it, and for good reason. This story of "localized production" is one of the myths developed by renewable energies; these are only myths, on the contrary the network must be strengthened at a cost which is by no means negligible (several tens of billion euros in Germany, which however only has a quarter of its production in renewable energies). ).

Not everything is wrong in what you write! But all "large" systems started small in any area. But our society has become dependent on these systems which impose their industrial policy and the "do-it-yourself" in question is a questioning of these devouring behemoths.
We perceive attempts to free ourselves from these sprawling systems like with AMAPs and short circuits to free ourselves from hyper markets, or even restaurants in the heart, telethons, (a shame for our rich society), etc ... and that continues with the water distribution networks that municipalities are taking over more and more. Will it be the solution of the future? No one can say at present, for lack of sufficient perspective, but one cannot know without trying first!
For the anecdote your speech reminds me of this humorist Goscinny in Asterix, with the fish merchant who sells only if it comes from Lutèce, even when he has the sea at hand. Or the absurdity of the owners of solar panels reselling their production to EDF and reusing it immediately rather than consuming it directly… ”they are crazy those Romans !!! »Which industry could buy a product above its selling price, without sinking? But who wonders why?
Finally, the question of the "less well-off" at the global level is indeed essential; it will be necessary to get out of this situation, under penalty of serious disturbances (to put it mildly). There are two ways to solve the problem:
either we tend towards a generalization of the situation of the most deprived (therefore we drastically restrict the "rich"),

That's what's going on!
either we tend towards the situation of the best endowed (and we improve the situation of the "less well off"); something tells me that the first option will not be accepted by anyone (the Chinese drove massively by bicycle 20 years ago, today ...)
and they return there by polluting saturation of big cities like in France for that matter!
In addition there are more than 4 billion travelers by air and this must double by 2050 and no question of nuclear or electric planes.
https://www.planetoscope.com/co2/1436-e ... ivile.html
plus military aviation!
and would be the first cause of major troubles ... It only remains for us to find a bearable and acceptable compromise, with as regulatory factors 1- energy and productive efficiency 2- a significant reduction in GHG emissions .. .

it's been more than 50 years since this speech held by whistleblowers and who found no echo with the leaders of all countries (and even more the USA.) This is not credible from a proactive political and economic will because nobody wants to lose their achievements and the poorest also want their share of the pie exclusively consumed by the wealthy countries today. As for increasing the amount of cakes, it would take between 2 and 10 planets like ours to provide these. However in these fields we are not models of virtues!
But if some people want to exclude themselves from the community and choose self-sufficiency, personally, that doesn't bother me at all; but that they do not beg in addition to the butter, the money of the butter, the support of the energy network and the subsidies for PV and wind ... Let them assume! Besides, what prevents them?

There is no question of excluding yourself, (the argument is worn down :frown: ) but to realize that the current system is going through the wall and that we must, at least, slow down by looking for genuinely suitable brakes rather than wanting to accelerate even more and our policy of reducing GHGs makes the countries in the process smile development.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Ahmed » 22/04/18, 21:42

Bardal, you write:
But if some people want to exclude themselves from the community and choose self-sufficiency, personally, that doesn't bother me at all; but that they do not beg in addition to the butter, the money of the butter, the support of the energy network and the subsidies for PV and wind ... Let them assume! Besides, what prevents them?

Individual asceticism, if it is a sacrifice, besides being ineffective on a practical level *, is a very convincing justification for the validity of consumerism. It can therefore only be justified by the feeling of "winning" on a personal and moral level, and therefore be posed as a positive step of distancing, of disalienation.

* What is saved by some will be wasted by others ...
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by ENERC » 23/04/18, 08:12

We perceive attempts to free ourselves from these sprawling systems like with AMAPs and short circuits to free ourselves from hyper markets, or even restaurants in the heart, telethons, (a shame for our rich society), etc ... and that continues with the water distribution networks that municipalities are taking over more and more. Will it be the solution of the future? No one can say at present, for lack of sufficient perspective, but one cannot know without trying first!

+1
The mistake was to create structures around the historic energy player like EDF Solar Purchase Obligation for photovoltaics.
Again and again centralization around the state.

It is changing, but very slowly. We can finally sell our electricity to a cooperative like Enercoop.
And with smartgrids, other exchange networks will be set up: towards vehicle charging services, in the regions, etc.

When producing will become cheaper than buying, short circuits will develop. But as ENEDIS and CRE lock the system by imposing technical rules which prevent short circuits, it will take time.

The locks will gradually break: for example 5 energy unions grouped in e-Born have decided to defy the ban on invoicing by kWh. It is not yet won because the CRE has not yet replied to the law firm.
Others like Tesla have come into force by ignoring the regulations ....
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Janic » 23/04/18, 09:06

sen no sen hello
Indeed no believer would exist if there did not exist a sort of "metaphysical carrot" to move him forward, and even less if he had to grasp the notion of god with regard to the naturalist definition!

Once again, it is a reductionist vision when it claims to be only naturalistic. Furthermore, this is a distortion of the very meaning of believer on the metaphysical level. The concept of metaphysical carrot is as absurd as to believe that a child believes in his parents by some sort of carrot because it benefits from protection and nourishment. The act of believing is free, with no expectation of particular return, even if it does exist.
However, this does not change the real nature of things, there is no more a god than gods for the simple reason that our mental capacities are by no means sufficient to understand the incomprehensible ...
Crazy reasoning! It is like asserting that there is no vacuum, infinity, absolute when we are unable to see and perceive its existence. Naming everything is part of the information for exchanging ideas.
Equally ridiculous. it is therefore necessary to create concepts to federate, to connect brains in order to create a network.
Equally ridiculous too! The shared notion of god does not belong to a concept, but to the experience. For “proof” the religious concepts are very different according to the cultures, but the experiences are the same. Obviously this escapes anyone who has not gone through these experiences and even deny them as we can deny France Inter if the radio only picks up Europe 1 or any other channel.
Indeed only those who capture France Inter can firmly that this chain really exists.
The idea of ​​God * therefore serves as an "anchor" for the believer, and it is then this psychic implant which allows the community of believers to build a society founded around this guiding thought.
There, there is a kind of reality for lack of truth. Isolation can create doubt that the experience is only a fantasy of the mind, the comparison with other experimenters confirms its reality and this is valid even for minds that believe themselves to be rational
It is exactly the same with exponential economism, this one is based on the belief (which it is largely operational) to be able to constantly increase one's standard of living, to increase one's sphere of influence and gratification to a point such as this, via technologism, promises ultimately if not eternal life, at least immortality.
It is not at all the same thing because on the one hand it does not belong to the rational of materialist society, on the other only to materialism, even if the latter is tinged with irrational (for this philosophy! )
For "eternal" life it is biological as much as social absurdity, but it is the materialist counterpart of "religious" eternal life. White beanie, white beanie!
* If this idea was really grasped then we should logically note the advent of a perfect world ... this is obviously by no means the case, which shows that the concept of God is unfortunately a concept of a sociological order.
This is naive reasoning in kindergarten or CE1 : Cheesy: , inherited from a misconception invented by religions as its opponents.
Already the notion of a perfect world is absurd in the conditions that surround us where Darwinism advocates the notion of the strongest always winning over the weakest (according to criteria which are often wrong). A perfect world would entail an enormous spiritual progression leading to harmonize it with actions.
To use the example of the automobile (or anything else) the designer seeks to eliminate all the possible faults that could endanger the future driver. But he cannot impose on him the rules of conduct sparing the life of the driver like the others (free will whose transgressors like to recommend themselves). Hence these binding laws (in biology we call this the laws of life) or even penalizing dangerous transgressors for themselves as for others [*]. So when everyone abides by the law, willingly, all the stress conditions will disappear at the same time making the automotive environment almost "perfect".

Ahmed hello
Individual asceticism, if it is a sacrifice, besides being ineffective on a practical level *, is a very convincing justification for the validity of consumerism. It can therefore only be justified by the feeling of "winning" on a personal and moral level, and therefore be posed as a positive step of distancing, of disalienation.
All this is very fair! in the area to which I am sensitive, Vg, we see that the notion of sacrifice (to forbid something, this is what Obamot thought before nuancing his speech and even changing his mind) supposed to be replaced (among vegans which grow more and more) by this positive step of distancing, of alienation of carnism, like others for the ORGANIC, alternative medicines, etc…
What is saved by some will be wasted by others ...
to a certain extent: yes! nature abhors a vacuum, we say! Admittedly, but emptying the container of a liquid or any product, eventually exhausting what it contains, it's just a matter of time!

[*] See the grumblings, transgressors of the imposed speeds, against the radars last generation which do not let anything pass any more.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by sen-no-sen » 23/04/18, 10:50

Janic wrote: Furthermore, this is a distortion of the very meaning of believer on the metaphysical level. The concept of metaphysical carrot is as absurd as to believe that a child believes in his parents by some sort of carrot because it benefits from protection and nourishment. The act of believing is free, with no expectation of particular return, even if it does exist.


Janic you are not in the right subject ... : Arrow: https://www.econologie.com/forums/societe-et-philosophie/ochlocratie-et-anacyclose-t15641-10.html
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Janic » 23/04/18, 15:12

Janic, you're not on the right subject.
there is no specific subject! I only take the bandwagon when it is initiated by others. :D
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Ahmed » 23/04/18, 20:14

The idea of ​​Salvation still constitutes a sacred (sic!) Metaphysical carrot ...
This concept has also found its translation in materialism which is more spiritual than it seems (although of a very mediocre spirituality). Salvation now goes through accumulation abstract of value, via the transitional period of Protestantism, during which eschatological salvation and terrestrial salvation experienced an unexpected and complex coexistence.
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