The energy transition law or the cart before the horse.

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sen-no-sen
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by sen-no-sen » 21/04/18, 17:19



It is unwise to compare countries without taking into account a number of disparities.

Portugal is a country with 10 million inhabitants against 66 million in France, and whose GDP per capita is about 16000 euros against 29900 euros at home is almost half as much ... we are not quite in the same order of magnitude!
I leave you therefore the care to invite the French to divide by two their wages and thus their purchasing powers (1) and have re-spoken ... :)
This simply confirms the idea that renewable energy is only possible in a low-energy society, which is not our case.

Indeed, it is the popular pressure that will change things, especially if a French power plant explodes or leaking enough to set the record straight.


There is nothing to expect from a possible popular pressure and even less politicians since it is much more of opinion based on emotions than serious analysis.
Do this little test around you, and ask your entourage how many wind turbines would be needed to replace a nuclear power plant, you're gonna laugh! (2)


For now, the fears instilled by the authorities and the media have focused on global warming and the influence of the consumption of fossil fuels, like a tree hiding the forest from the risks of nuclear, invisible, without colors, nor smells.


Yes and rightly so, even if the hidden implications are far from being as ecological, however the RCA threatens all complex life forms, which fortunately is not the case of the electro-nuclear sector.
This does not reinvigorate the image of this sector, which is ultimately an industrial singularity of rich countries whose impact on the same warming is more than marginal.



(1) and therefore their ability to dissipate energy.
(2) latest in date a friend who told me 50 wind turbines! : Lol:
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Bardal » 21/04/18, 17:34

Janic wrote:It is not only a question of dismantling structures that are only slightly irradiated, but hearts as well, which does not seem to have been achieved yet and can cost crazy amounts except to bury them as for the dumping of our consumer waste.
... / ...
Indeed, it is the popular pressure that will change things, especially if a French power plant explodes or leaking enough to set the record straight.
For now, the fears instilled by the authorities and the media have focused on global warming and the influence of the consumption of fossil fuels, like a tree hiding the forest from the risks of nuclear, invisible, without colors, nor smells.
... / ...
The same insulation would drastically reduce the bill with fossil energies as is the case today of so-called passive over-insulated houses reducing to almost nothing the cost of the necessary heating.
It does not therefore credit the nuclear as a better solution.
... / ...
she is good this one, but a little and even a lot worn ... knees : Cheesy: the linking factor is also valid for the materials extracted from the soil and therefore we have no national source and the tap can also close, maybe even before the fossil energies. But nobody talks about a sudden cessation, because almost impossible, including the dismantling of the power stations in question. But many savings can be made by ceasing many wastes to start with the eve of electrical appliances, the decrease of domestic appliances like household robots without much use like electric boxes and other mixers like a whole host of others products and that does not bring us back to the Neanderthal! The state has encouraged the use of lighting economizer, decreased unnecessary public lighting in the middle of the night, etc ...
The example of Remondo (even if everyone can not or will not do it) shows the possibility and more and more eco-friendly means develop individually: small streams always end up filling the sea!


For your government, about fifteen power stations have been completely dismantled in the US, including the heart of course, for amounts corresponding to provisions, and very close to EDF estimates ... In any case, it will cost less than for build them, below 100 Mds ...

And we must stop agitating the bogeyman of "nuclear power plant explosions"; for the moment, and after 50 years of experience, nuclear is the safest energy industry, by far ... In Fukushima, it is the "instilled fear" of a nuclear risk that has no victim to date who has managed to hide the forest from the 20 tsunami deaths, very real them. The wolf, the bogeyman, the croquemitaine and the wicked fairies are for little children; you do not have to agitate them here, we have passed the age ...

Possible that house insulation would have been better if it had been otherwise, but for now, our heritage of pretty much insulated homes is electric. For the future, we have above all 30 million buildings "thermal strainers" to take over, so that if we wait for new constructions of passive houses, we have a hundred years to wait at the current rate (I'm kind).

As for counting on the savings of electric savers, closed taps or manual can openers, it's really a farce; you are completely beside the plate in terms of order of magnitude ... completely, by a factor 10 ^ 6 or 9 ... What is serious is that you are not the only one to confuse a pack of caahouetes with the world oilseed production, and a light bulb with all the energy changes that took place in the 20th century ... Be careful though, everyone is used to it, and will not do the opposite ...

The question Remundo deserves a whole thread; I would simply say that the best intentions of the world lead very easily to hell ...
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Bardal » 21/04/18, 17:43

Oops, I forgot ... Portugal has the particularity that hydroelectric power produces 55% of electricity, with two decisive advantages:

1 - it is a renewable energy, but not generalizable to other countries
2- it's an energy of stock, which regulates at the same time the question of the fatal intermittency of the wind and the solar ...

Few countries can benefit from such favorable conditions (there is Norway, Iceland, Switzerland ...), and despite that its emissions of CO2 / inhabitant are about that of the French ...
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by sen-no-sen » 21/04/18, 18:03

bardal wrote:Oops, I forgot ... Portugal has the particularity that hydroelectric power produces 55% of electricity, with two decisive advantages (...)



Of the same order as Canada (56%) which is not a model of ecology ....
Countries can only be compared by considering a multitude of parameters, at once geographical sociological and economic.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Janic » 21/04/18, 20:07

janic wrote: The proof that if!
https://www.euractiv.fr/section/energie ... -isolated /
It is unwise to compare countries without taking into account a number of disparities.
Portugal is a country with 10 million inhabitants against 66 million in France, and whose GDP per capita is about 16000 euros against 29900 euros at home is almost half as much ... we are not quite in the same order of magnitude!
I leave you therefore the care to invite the French to divide by two their wages and thus their purchasing powers (1) and have re-spoken ...
I do not see how the political and industrial decision of Portugal would not be adaptable to our country. Thus the lower Portuguese income should instead curb investments in ENR! what does Ahmed say?
This simply confirms the idea that renewable energy is only possible in a low-energy society, which is not our case.
Of course we are not sober, influenced by the American model. But we must not only think about the current model, which must change willingly or forcefully by the global situation, which can not and will not adopt our model of waste. (as the food and health model indicated previously).
Indeed, it is the popular pressure that will change things, especially if a French power plant explodes or leaking enough to set the record straight.
There is nothing to expect from a possible popular pressure and even less politicians since it is much more of opinion based on emotions than serious analysis.

Only to a certain extent. Chernobyl as Fukushima have made more than one think and these "ones" in question vote!
Do this little test around you, and ask your entourage how many wind turbines would be needed to replace a nuclear power plant, you're gonna laugh! (2)
Same thing you should not think about wind power only! The share of renewable energy is steadily increasing and diversifying too. Thus the share of hydroelectric power over water could greatly increase.
In the same way around you ask how many "wind turbines" will remain dangerous for thousands of years and that will become all this waste buried away from the eyes, but in the ignorance of what they will become in a few years, not even on 24.000 years, as we see that forecasters are struggling to see beyond a few decades.
For now, the fears instilled by the authorities and the media have focused on global warming and the influence of the consumption of fossil fuels, like a tree hiding the forest from the risks of nuclear, invisible, without colors, nor smells.
Yes and rightly so, even if the hidden implications are far from being as ecological, however the RCA threatens all complex life forms, which fortunately is not the case of the electro-nuclear sector.

Indeed, what matters to the majority of people and politics is the present moment, not a future even close ... unless it's boouuummmm!
Assuming that our GLOBAL consumption of fossil fuels is decreasing per capita, it is already too late to prevent the packaged machine from continuing, if only because of the population explosion and the desire of the non-affluent countries to access the same energy privileges as us.


For your government, about fifteen power stations have been completely dismantled in the US, including the heart of course, for amounts corresponding to provisions, and very close to EDF estimates ... In any case, it will cost less than for build them, below 100 Mds ...
and launching a bomb on a power station is even cheaper; but at what cost in human lives!

What the nuclear dismantling hides
Nobody knows today how to evaluate the cost of dismantling-reprocessing. "This projection does not come from an environmental activist, but from Emmanuel Macron. The dismantling of reactors and waste management are indeed the big unknown in the nuclear industry. There are 450 reactors in operation worldwide and 110 at a standstill. Only twenty units have been deconstructed, half of them in the United States. None in France. A paradox. Our country has the second largest nuclear park on the planet. But it fails to dismantle the nine first-generation power stations today shut down.

https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/en ... ire_477559

And we must stop agitating the bogeyman of "nuclear power plant explosions"; for the moment, and after 50 years of experience, nuclear is the safest of the energy industries, by far ...
Fortunately given the dangerousness of the product, which does not prevent a few failures ... until the disaster "impossible to predict".
In Fukushima, it is the "instilled fear" of a nuclear risk who has not had any victims so far who managed to hide the forest of 20 000 dead from the tsunami, very real them.
It is the same pronuclear speech that was held for Chernobyl and obviously false.
The wolf, the bogeyman, the bogeyman and the wicked fairies, it's for little children; you are exempt from shaking them here, we have passed the age ...
no better for those who still believe in Santa Claus!
Possible insulation of homes would have been better if it had been otherwise, but for now, our legacy of roughly insulated homes is electric.
The same insulation policy could have been maintained for the other heating methods, but the surcharge was not within the reach of all stock exchanges, which is less the case today with the performance of the materials and their lower cost. .
For the future, we have above all 30 million buildings "thermal strainers" to take over, so that if we wait for new constructions of passive houses, we have a hundred years to wait at the current rate (I'm kind).
It is a fact that the building stock was not designed to cope with global warming that optimists of the time did not consider urgent, despite warnings from whistleblowers.
Be careful though, everyone is used to it,
I know the world, in France, had become used to waste and will have to review its copy.
and will not do the opposite way ...
Of course, probably not! But France, like the other wealthy countries, will have to align with a world-wide consumption for each of its inhabitants
The question Remundo deserves a whole thread; I would simply say that the best intentions of the world lead very easily to hell ...
For proof you have, it seems, the best intentions of the world vis-à-vis the nuclear that leads to an inevitable hell! : Cry:
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Ahmed » 21/04/18, 21:04

I admit I do not know the energy situation in Portugal, but the availability of hydro electricity is a definite advantage in terms of renewable, since flexible (so accommodates a little wind).
Regarding the dismantling of the power plants, the cost seems to me to depend a lot on the methods and the qualitative requirements ... There is a strong risk that compromises will be established between cost and "cleanliness" ("acceptable" impact on the health of the populations).
Electric heating has influenced the insulation standards (to make the extra cost of electricity acceptable, as notes Janic), certainly positive, but if I consider the latest achievements, theoretically much more demanding, I find that achieving temperate air bubbles is certainly not the best option.
On the crucial question of "waste", there is little hope, since waste is the engine of the functioning of our societies. Moreover, it is the role of the energy transition to encourage the increase in new investments; the concern being that they are profitable only at the microeconomic level and in a rather artificial configuration. If this were not the case, even with stagnant growth, the funds would be available for far-reaching changes, but investing to decrease the financial flow ... : roll: : Lol:
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by sen-no-sen » 21/04/18, 21:13

Janic wrote:I do not see how the political and industrial decision of Portugal would not be adaptable to our country. Thus the lower Portuguese income should instead curb investments in ENR! what does Ahmed say?


It does not work that way.
The geographical situation of Portugal is not the same as in France, half of their electrical production is of hydraulic origin what makes things much easier.
In France hydropower accounts for 11% of our production and we can not expect more (1) against 55% in Portugal, 56% in Switzerland, 57% in Canada, 68% in Venezuela, and the champion Norway with nearly 96%, not by referendum but simply because of such a country has adequate mountainous area.
For the rest Portugal still produces nearly 30% of its electricity via heat against 6% in France ...

Now the electricity consumption per inhabitant is not the same and suddenly the investments are lower 6930 kwh / per capita in France against 4660 in Portugal.
The less you consume and the less it is necessary to plant CQFD wind turbines ...

Only to a certain extent. Chernobyl as Fukushima have made more than one think and these "ones" in question vote!


Neither Ukraine nor Japan have yet decided the exit of the nuclear ... The countries which left it did it because it could do it without that having an economic impact on the country, actually why develop a sector as expensive as ENR resources can do so (case of Switzerland)?

Same thing you should not think about wind power only! The share of renewable energy is steadily increasing and diversifying too. Thus the share of hydroelectric power over water could greatly increase.


To you to demonstrate it ... it is not some small projects that will change the energy mix to come, the tendency in France is rather to the deconstruction of certain dams considered rightly as being harmful for the fauna and the flora.

(1) except to develop STEP in large numbers, which will just increase the ENR rating.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Bardal » 21/04/18, 21:29

Bof ... hydro-electric over the water ... We could try on the Loire (well, if the worshipers of the "last wild river" accept it); in total, with dams throughout the middle course, we would manage to produce the equivalent of a slice ... plus some ecological damage ...

You jannic jannic about the potential of renewable, as the height of need ...
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Ahmed » 21/04/18, 22:16

Yes, I believe that we should not make the mistake of confusing "DIY" (even a tad serious) with the industrial dimension.
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Re: The Energy Transition Law or the cart before the horse.




by Janic » 22/04/18, 09:06

Ahmed
I generally agree with the first part of your answer, but less about it.
On the crucial question of "waste", there is little hope, since waste is the engine of the functioning of our societies.

Or rather it has been and the rest in many cases in our societies of haves accustomed to this waste in the deepest indifference as to its environmental and health consequences: We find traces of plastics in the molds, and other products of the sea, what do humans eat! (another reason to become VG !!!!!)
But the awareness of the populations increases with regard to this waste in question and more and more initiatives are taken to limit or even reduce this waste as by the recycling, for example, of materials, household waste, food products less polluted, the bio, by the soft medicine, etc ... they are small streams, certainly, but which increase progressively over the awakenings and the means developed in this sense and the industrialists are, thus, obliged to follow the movement.
It is also the role of the energy transition to encourage new investments; the concern is that they are profitable only at the microeconomic scale and in a rather artificial configuration.

That's right, but the reforms are always at the bottom because without consumers no industries! It is to be noted, in ads that express industrial orientations, that aluminum, paraben and other dyes and improvers have been removed from hygiene products, (except in vaccines, which is contradictory, but the industry pharmaceutical is the most powerful of the industries on this earth and it plays on the fear of the populations with the complicity of the governments) of the same the bio settles everywhere (other means anti waste) even if it is with the speed of a snail race.

Sen no sen
For the rest Portugal still produces nearly 30% of its electricity via heat against 6% in France ...
Of course, any energy transition can only be made at the pace of the means put in place and the desire for change. France walks rather backwards or brakes both feet, it does not advance the schmilblick. So we must not be content to see the present moment only, but project ourselves into the future and the share of fossil energies will be reduced more and more. But we must not dream for as much the thermal will not disappear for all that, the effort is rather to bring to reduce the individual and industrial pollution.
Now the electricity consumption per inhabitant is not the same and suddenly the investments are lower 6930 kwh / per capita in France against 4660 in Portugal.
The less you consume and the less it is necessary to plant CQFD wind turbines ...

Same thing you should not think about wind power only! The share of renewable energy is steadily increasing and diversifying too. Thus the share of hydroelectric power over water could greatly increase.

To you to demonstrate it ... it is not some small projects that will change the energy mix to come, the tendency in France is rather to the deconstruction of certain dams considered rightly as being harmful for the fauna and the flora.

These dams had not been studied to leave a passage to the fauna and consequently on the related flora. In the same way, the dams were designed for maximum efficiency to be more economically connected to the grid, such as industrial solar panels.
Yes, I believe that we should not make the mistake of confusing "DIY" (even a tad serious) with the industrial dimension.
This is where the problem lies in seeing only an energy economy based on industrial profitability. Crafts (at the level of a community of village, city, region) are the future by a more coherent energy mix than to depend on a centralizing wasteful system by its energy losses. However, and inevitably, the population must and will adapt to this new model, even if it implies a change of "comfort" too easy.
But last but not least, we must think no more about a selfish society affluent, but to see at the global level if our way of life and overconsumption is and will remain viable with a population well over 10 billion without causing a revolution of the less fortunate who are already and will be the most numerous on this earth.
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