first of all you have to read the pages of m david:
http://quanthomme.free.fr/pantone/PageM_David.htm
Newcomers in the water doping
basic mechanics:
Today's engines with aluminum cylinder head absorbs much of the heat at
detriment from that in the exhaust,
This explains why tractor engines have a hotter exhaust, most of them have
cast iron heads.
It was customary to say that the losses were higher in the exhaust than in the water of
cooling, but now this is not true especially on diesel, have found
also by the physical dimensions of the radiators and the speed of heating.
andré 21 dec 2005
Aluminum is not a super heat conductor, however:
aluminum pans take more time to heat than stainless steel pans.
maybe cast iron is still - good heat conductor than aluminum?
but I do not think so.
the heating speed of the cabin is due to heating resistances.
They heat the water at the start (on recent vehicles).
tryf 21 Apr 2006
It's not because you discolor red that it does not smell
when you're a car that's bleached red, it smells like the furnace and sulfur, it's a
little for that those (the few) who roll with fuel here, do it only in winter all the
world rolls the closed windows it is too cold.
when it comes to consumption reading on injection models:
the base this calculation is the duration of the pulses to the injectors, according to the time and the number
injectors, there may be a slight error when the fuel filter begins to
so a slight lack of pressure injectors, but overall is reliable measurements.
If you have an oscilloscope on hand you will measure the signal of the lambda probe running.
At the moment and when you will have the water you will see the differrence, the signal is corrugated c, is a
mean, it is a very fluctuating signal in operation. I have given up on having consecrated
of energy to want to modify this signal, but if you are in the business go in the computer
some model are reprogramable and the signal is looping to a + 1,4volts it is he who
determines the ratio, just have the ability to change this voltage, to change the
ratio
The alternators, most are autofeild, ie they have a small diode bridge
dedicated internal only for exitation.
it is necessary that the remanant of the rotor undergoes a certain revolution so that it is extinguished, although there is
has an internal connection on the + to solve this problem, if it is a reconditiné can be
that he did not change this circuit, but that does not prevent to charge, he must debited
14,4 volts for American tanks and 13,8 volts on some Japanese
The account turns and taken on the alternating current before the big diode it takes into account the
frequency of the alternator and depending on the ratio of the pulleys he does a calculation, If you put a
other type of alternator or pulley everything is distorted.
I do not understand the builders to have done this way.
A simple magnetic or optical sensor would have made the job, no he prefers to put sensors
on the levels of the glass washer and electric seats ...
reniflar:
Regarding the outlet of the crankcase or (rocker cover)
it's normal that it comes out of water vapor and oil vapor that's what it's used for,
all engines emit steam in the crankcase,
and the more it is worn, the more it goes along the segments and it contaminates the oil.
the casing must be ventilated,
On planes sends this under the hood. with the depression of the speed that sucks.
In winter it is not necessary that this pipe geese or closes:
This breaks the crankshaft seal back of the propeller
and the parchment becomes buttered with oil.
A well-known failure of the pilots in winter ...
I do not think that you have to fill up a diesel engine with excess, the turbos are especially the
to increase the air intake when the engine speed increases (this starts to decrease
because of the valves and the inertia of the gases).
If this theory were true (a lot of air), the builders would make engines
diesel very large engine and inject very little diesel.
I'm not sure that it would give a good return: you have to compress that air.
And I'm not sure it would burn better in the firebox, that would make
more smoke, if the diesel smokes it is not because they lack air, it is that the
combustion is done in bad conditions (fast) and not enough turbulent.
The drops of injected gasoil do not find near clean air to burn, there are plenty
air but not in the right place, so that it burns flush with the injector and further
the air that has not received fuel does it do in the engine?
She just eats a good amount of energy to be compressed, and for a pantone
it is too much air to make the engine run at low exhaust temperatures.
I think lower at the end of relaxation than was the air in the end compresssion,
(this last remark is just my impression)
andré
To force the engine into air is to artificially increase the compression ratio.
So the yield (see pages m david)
but you can not incrementally increase the compression ratio because the air
compressed would become too hot, and there would be losses in the form of
this heat in the cooling water. see m david.
Ideal it would be an engine that would not break to overheat.
There would be no need for cooling water.
we could have a huge compression ratio.
so a temperature at the end of huge compression too.
and a yield close to 100%. (therefore cold exhaust).
All the energy would be used to run the engine.
there would be no loss in the form of heat (in the water of
cooling or in the heat of the exhaust).
of course, 100%, it would be the efficiency of this engine on the proportion of fuel that burns.
if there are nibbles (soot fumes ..., that's another story.)
tryf
The prechambers, the rooms of reseves, the injection in stage ect ..
it's just to fill a gap on the burning of diesel, and for me I
believe that combustion in a diesel is very complex and of poor quality.
If we compare this to an oil burner, or to a gas turbine:
never see a black soot like that, yet it burns the same fuel ...
andré
motor does not eat any more oil since the instalation of a pantonne:
it's normal on a motor not too worn, with a pantone you clean your engine, so if your
segment cut fire and your scraper was bridled by shit, you found sealing;
therefore, the loss of oil consumption. : Rolleyes:
On the other hand on a motor completely washed oil conso increases because you remove shit
that blocked the holes
Do not run with a gasoline engine to reach more than 750c on the reactor body.
On a turbo diesel engine 600c it's a maximum.
And again it depends on the type of engine:
cooled air or water, cylinder head design, engine stroke:
the long race engines are colder. (because compression ratio + high so
better performance? tryf).
The minimum is around 400c.
most modern turbo engines skate in these values, so you have to play
fireworks to look for heat on the nozzle of the reactor ..
andré
consomation:
The position of the accelerator is only approximate on the consomation, certe it is a clue
but not exact, I had to install a linear potentiometer on the Mercedes (a resitance
variable that tells me precisely the position of the accelerator on a digital dial in
Car)
But after the accelerator, in the pump, there is a centrifugal regulator
(for Bosch pumps and many others) this distorts the position.
For gasoline engines it is the depression in the collector that has been the reference during
many years ..
I find that when we are used to riding on a machine The feeling of driving tells us
plus and consumption records, worked equally and in the same climates
andré
gasoline engine depression:
As the reactor outlet in our case flows into the intake manifold
depression is great at idle and it decreases with the opening of the butterfly
This kind of editing is not self-regulating and I would say that this is the reverse of what we
will want.
the advantage is that it generates a good depression for low diets and intermediation
in strong load (case of a coast) it is ineffective because the throttle is wide open the engine
the regime goes down, the depression goes down.
Exhaust temperatures:
As for low speed temperatures, it is not comparable with diesel
and a gasoline engine, the differrence is very large the gasoline engine generates much more
of heat. (because it has an even lower yield than a diesel)
when the Turbo diesel engine, it generates even less heat
especially if the engine is oversized for the vehicle
that's my case (a 3 liter Mercedes 300TD)
Today's engines with aluminum cylinder head absorbs much of the heat at
detriment from that in the exhaust,
This explains why tractor engines have a hotter exhaust, most of them have
cast iron heads.
It was customary to say that the losses were higher in the exhaust than in the water of
cooling, but now this is not true especially on diesel, have found
also by the physical dimensions of the radiators and the speed of heating.
andré 21 dec 2005
Aluminum is not a super heat conductor, however:
aluminum pans take more time to heat than stainless steel pans.
maybe cast iron is still - good heat conductor than aluminum?
but I do not think so.
the heating speed of the cabin is due to heating resistances.
They heat the water at the start (on recent vehicles).
tryf 21 Apr 2006
It's not because you discolor red that it does not smell
when you're a car that's bleached red, it smells like the furnace and sulfur, it's a
little for that those (the few) who roll with fuel here, do it only in winter all the
world rolls the closed windows it is too cold.
when it comes to consumption reading on injection models:
the base this calculation is the duration of the pulses to the injectors, according to the time and the number
injectors, there may be a slight error when the fuel filter begins to
so a slight lack of pressure injectors, but overall is reliable measurements.
If you have an oscilloscope on hand you will measure the signal of the lambda probe running.
At the moment and when you will have the water you will see the differrence, the signal is corrugated c, is a
mean, it is a very fluctuating signal in operation. I have given up on having consecrated
of energy to want to modify this signal, but if you are in the business go in the computer
some model are reprogramable and the signal is looping to a + 1,4volts it is he who
determines the ratio, just have the ability to change this voltage, to change the
ratio
The alternators, most are autofeild, ie they have a small diode bridge
dedicated internal only for exitation.
it is necessary that the remanant of the rotor undergoes a certain revolution so that it is extinguished, although there is
has an internal connection on the + to solve this problem, if it is a reconditiné can be
that he did not change this circuit, but that does not prevent to charge, he must debited
14,4 volts for American tanks and 13,8 volts on some Japanese
The account turns and taken on the alternating current before the big diode it takes into account the
frequency of the alternator and depending on the ratio of the pulleys he does a calculation, If you put a
other type of alternator or pulley everything is distorted.
I do not understand the builders to have done this way.
A simple magnetic or optical sensor would have made the job, no he prefers to put sensors
on the levels of the glass washer and electric seats ...
reniflar:
Regarding the outlet of the crankcase or (rocker cover)
it's normal that it comes out of water vapor and oil vapor that's what it's used for,
all engines emit steam in the crankcase,
and the more it is worn, the more it goes along the segments and it contaminates the oil.
the casing must be ventilated,
On planes sends this under the hood. with the depression of the speed that sucks.
In winter it is not necessary that this pipe geese or closes:
This breaks the crankshaft seal back of the propeller
and the parchment becomes buttered with oil.
A well-known failure of the pilots in winter ...
I do not think that you have to fill up a diesel engine with excess, the turbos are especially the
to increase the air intake when the engine speed increases (this starts to decrease
because of the valves and the inertia of the gases).
If this theory were true (a lot of air), the builders would make engines
diesel very large engine and inject very little diesel.
I'm not sure that it would give a good return: you have to compress that air.
And I'm not sure it would burn better in the firebox, that would make
more smoke, if the diesel smokes it is not because they lack air, it is that the
combustion is done in bad conditions (fast) and not enough turbulent.
The drops of injected gasoil do not find near clean air to burn, there are plenty
air but not in the right place, so that it burns flush with the injector and further
the air that has not received fuel does it do in the engine?
She just eats a good amount of energy to be compressed, and for a pantone
it is too much air to make the engine run at low exhaust temperatures.
I think lower at the end of relaxation than was the air in the end compresssion,
(this last remark is just my impression)
andré
To force the engine into air is to artificially increase the compression ratio.
So the yield (see pages m david)
but you can not incrementally increase the compression ratio because the air
compressed would become too hot, and there would be losses in the form of
this heat in the cooling water. see m david.
Ideal it would be an engine that would not break to overheat.
There would be no need for cooling water.
we could have a huge compression ratio.
so a temperature at the end of huge compression too.
and a yield close to 100%. (therefore cold exhaust).
All the energy would be used to run the engine.
there would be no loss in the form of heat (in the water of
cooling or in the heat of the exhaust).
of course, 100%, it would be the efficiency of this engine on the proportion of fuel that burns.
if there are nibbles (soot fumes ..., that's another story.)
tryf
The prechambers, the rooms of reseves, the injection in stage ect ..
it's just to fill a gap on the burning of diesel, and for me I
believe that combustion in a diesel is very complex and of poor quality.
If we compare this to an oil burner, or to a gas turbine:
never see a black soot like that, yet it burns the same fuel ...
andré
motor does not eat any more oil since the instalation of a pantonne:
it's normal on a motor not too worn, with a pantone you clean your engine, so if your
segment cut fire and your scraper was bridled by shit, you found sealing;
therefore, the loss of oil consumption. : Rolleyes:
On the other hand on a motor completely washed oil conso increases because you remove shit
that blocked the holes
Do not run with a gasoline engine to reach more than 750c on the reactor body.
On a turbo diesel engine 600c it's a maximum.
And again it depends on the type of engine:
cooled air or water, cylinder head design, engine stroke:
the long race engines are colder. (because compression ratio + high so
better performance? tryf).
The minimum is around 400c.
most modern turbo engines skate in these values, so you have to play
fireworks to look for heat on the nozzle of the reactor ..
andré
consomation:
The position of the accelerator is only approximate on the consomation, certe it is a clue
but not exact, I had to install a linear potentiometer on the Mercedes (a resitance
variable that tells me precisely the position of the accelerator on a digital dial in
Car)
But after the accelerator, in the pump, there is a centrifugal regulator
(for Bosch pumps and many others) this distorts the position.
For gasoline engines it is the depression in the collector that has been the reference during
many years ..
I find that when we are used to riding on a machine The feeling of driving tells us
plus and consumption records, worked equally and in the same climates
andré
gasoline engine depression:
As the reactor outlet in our case flows into the intake manifold
depression is great at idle and it decreases with the opening of the butterfly
This kind of editing is not self-regulating and I would say that this is the reverse of what we
will want.
the advantage is that it generates a good depression for low diets and intermediation
in strong load (case of a coast) it is ineffective because the throttle is wide open the engine
the regime goes down, the depression goes down.
Exhaust temperatures:
As for low speed temperatures, it is not comparable with diesel
and a gasoline engine, the differrence is very large the gasoline engine generates much more
of heat. (because it has an even lower yield than a diesel)
when the Turbo diesel engine, it generates even less heat
especially if the engine is oversized for the vehicle
that's my case (a 3 liter Mercedes 300TD)
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 25, 1 edited once.
0 x
EGR valve:
pantone according to the speed of the motor:
Examine see the ERG valve on an auto, you will see that it has a similar problem it is
used in very specific conditions and it is quite close to that of the panton,
On the buick the ERGvalve is differrential with 2 hole sizes for exhaust, following
the engine speed ..
I sometimes wonder: if I used this command with a valve to control the panton?
The ERG valve is mistakenly called exhaust gas recirculation
but this is not exactly his role, it is a gas injection
((inert)) to lower the combustion temperature and reduce the nox.
For a diesel engine it is not a success this principle, it is rather a way to put in
standards with a slight decrease in polution, a pantone water injection at this level is
more efficient.
andré
(lower the combustion temperature !!! ???)
I believe rather that it is exactly the same principle that the pantonne:
injection of water vapor "pantonnée" in the admission.
Except that he also injected, unbrushed
(soot and carbon monoxide C0 which may be "rebrushed");
and carbon dioxide (CO2, useless)
tryf
First of all it will be necessary to know if your vehicle is turbo or atmospheric
If it's turbo it's going to be difficult to take this entry for Steam Stuff, because
that at this level it does not aspire when the turbo is in operation.
In my assembly Chevrolet gasoline j, have condemned the REG valve
and used this inlet in the tubing, to bring in panton doping gas al, water.
On the diesel I condemned the ERG valve, and I made my entry panton just before the turbo
to have a good depression.
andré
vehicle:
Atmospheric, Direct injection: (280 Bar), permanently charged.
10.48 L / 100 Km in his best days!
As it has a small engine, 76Cv for 2.5 liters of displacement:
It must be kept in the towers to ride properly
In the technical journal, it is noted that the EGR system has been added to reduce the
rate ??? , and the engine loses 4 Cv in passing!
To return to the EGR in question, I have this aprem a little bit to be able to see more closely
this merdouille. There is actually a throttle connected to the throttle on the pump a
injection, then an exhaust gas inlet, visible to the eye because full of soot at this level
la
A small membrane on the top and voila!
I think this EGR will disappear in favor of a cone venturi, it is in my opinion the best
place to realize the gas entry Pantomes and even can be hold the butterfly that
reduces the air intake from the filter
Arbizon
I also think that you have the right vehicle for a panton, not for the same reasons as you
(direct injection, atmospheric), but because it is a small engine under powerful to trainer
this kind of vehicle so a motor that forces, you approach the tractors:
engine not busté and always solicited.
In my assembly Mercedes 3litres j, had a better performance when I put more wheels
big back (propulsion back) and if I found a differential has a larger ratio I
I'm sure it would improve the panton, such an engine does not force enough to 110kmh from where the
poor performance of the reactor, the builders chose to make diesel vehicles that
approaching the performance of gasoline cars and it hurts us with a panton, too much RPM
(revolutions per minute) for the little developed power.
We notice this in a hill driving. or if you pull a trailer.
The ERG valve on a diesel is mostly completely fouled, it's a patch on a
wooden leg, a panton has water in the same hole will do much better. even in the first
time when I rolled in the carpet (foot to the floor), my friend who stuck to the back, my
He said that soot dust was coming out. (with water this cleans the entire engine and the
tuayuterie.)
andré
For a gasoline engine with an inlet under the throttle valve in the intake manifold.
The main role of the valve in the reactor circuit is to cut the panton at idle,
not only when the bubbler is cold or the reactor cold, even when everything is hot it does not
must not have an inlet in the tubing, let alone spend water in the engine.
This results in overconsumption of fuel, and misfires
of the motor.
For those who have tried to put the ERG valve (injection of a small part of the exhaust)
permanently open on an engine, the idle becomes unstable and the consumption increases.
It should not be forgotten that the injection of a part of the exhaust gas also means
injection of a small amount of water vapor, very small, but which plays a role on
the pollution and on the consumption..Try to boquer the ERG valve in closed position on a
gasoline engine and test the consumption.
(Simply disconnect the small vaccine tube.)
Can you explain what the ERG valve is (is it the same as the EGR valve on which
we had a heated debate in the subject "the truth about LPG" that skidded yesterday?).
I do not know how to call you this cochonerie in France,
in North America in the language of garage owners
ERG valve Exaust Gas Recirculation
C, is a return of a small amount of exhaust gas in the engine intake for
reduce (Nox) that lowers the combustion temperature, it's a simplistic way and
economic that the builders put on all the vehicles to meet the standards of
pollution, this has a certain
success on gasoline engines, but on diesel engines
that's not worth the heck, I would even say that most of the vehicles I've seen this
valve is discreetly condemned closed
(a small blow of soldering iron on the pipe of plastic pressure) It is preferable to
do not open a debate on this
valve, the only analogy I brought is that it gets into the engine a small
amount of water vapor too.
In my editing I eliminated this valve, I needed this hole to make my entry
panton.
Now I wonder if should not keep all the control and the valve to send
just what comes out of the panton in the engine, the conditions are almost identical to the need
of the engine, it cuts in idle and it opens that has a certain power.
more elaborate motors that function modulated way)
The ERG valve is the same as EGR or exhaust gas recirculation valve, it's
again in fashion in recent years. On the diesels apparently it hangs pretty
quickly (fouling with soot, deposits) in tens of thousands of kms
and it stifles the engine miserably and hello pollution! Probably some mechanics
will block them too ... Although, replace them with new ones it pays!
Hence the interest of the Pantone in water doping that cleans the engine and makes him find his
original performance ...
I understood that it was the EGR valve that was but I wanted to be sure.
STP, so go see the heated debate that took place in the subject "the truth about LPG" where I
I am burned because supposedly I did not know anything about it, whereas I reported what
I had read and heard from dieselists and mechanics about the EGR valve. I saw some
just a dozen disassembled (very fouled with soot) and removed, the mechanic closes the hole
with a plate made by him.
Christophe created a topic "EGR valve" in which he put copies of newspaper articles
specialized (which I had already read) showing the aberration of this system. It was born in Europe in
1993 to meet new European pollution standards (only?), Because I believe
that at that time the catalytic converters were not yet mounted on diesel vehicles.
Keep me informed of your ideas on the subject.
It is indeed a very good idea to use this hole to put the pantone reactor ...
if I understood what you did.
I have 40 000km on the meter, with a (egr) pantone, I recycle the exhaust, and ca
rolled side depollution is massive on my old diesel !!! and goes from 9 to 6 liter according to the
proto ...! test on the bench!
It is true that the water of the bubbler gets dirty, but it is better in a small box than in the
nature !!! and then we are not the owner of the fuel that we buy !!!
so we collect and when we have a big package, (it does not take much space once
filtered) they are returned to their owner all together
Ok, the problem is actually not the EGR valve, but the fact that it is not expected
maintenance (dismantling + periodic cleaning as for the oil changes).
This is not recommended by the builders because it would increase the cost price of the diesels
(from what I read) and on some vehicles it is very labor intensive
(confirmed by a diesel-based Clermont-Fd-Ets Sauret).
What do you think?
I think you're riding with a pantonised diesel nevada? Does the petrol models know
F2N engine fuel? I have one that has 370000 kms behind the house (my son's old vehicle).
There is a guy on the forum who told me that it was good on this engine but I did not
no news of him.
Thank you in advance if you have pipes.
pantone according to the speed of the motor:
Examine see the ERG valve on an auto, you will see that it has a similar problem it is
used in very specific conditions and it is quite close to that of the panton,
On the buick the ERGvalve is differrential with 2 hole sizes for exhaust, following
the engine speed ..
I sometimes wonder: if I used this command with a valve to control the panton?
The ERG valve is mistakenly called exhaust gas recirculation
but this is not exactly his role, it is a gas injection
((inert)) to lower the combustion temperature and reduce the nox.
For a diesel engine it is not a success this principle, it is rather a way to put in
standards with a slight decrease in polution, a pantone water injection at this level is
more efficient.
andré
(lower the combustion temperature !!! ???)
I believe rather that it is exactly the same principle that the pantonne:
injection of water vapor "pantonnée" in the admission.
Except that he also injected, unbrushed
(soot and carbon monoxide C0 which may be "rebrushed");
and carbon dioxide (CO2, useless)
tryf
First of all it will be necessary to know if your vehicle is turbo or atmospheric
If it's turbo it's going to be difficult to take this entry for Steam Stuff, because
that at this level it does not aspire when the turbo is in operation.
In my assembly Chevrolet gasoline j, have condemned the REG valve
and used this inlet in the tubing, to bring in panton doping gas al, water.
On the diesel I condemned the ERG valve, and I made my entry panton just before the turbo
to have a good depression.
andré
vehicle:
Atmospheric, Direct injection: (280 Bar), permanently charged.
10.48 L / 100 Km in his best days!
As it has a small engine, 76Cv for 2.5 liters of displacement:
It must be kept in the towers to ride properly
In the technical journal, it is noted that the EGR system has been added to reduce the
rate ??? , and the engine loses 4 Cv in passing!
To return to the EGR in question, I have this aprem a little bit to be able to see more closely
this merdouille. There is actually a throttle connected to the throttle on the pump a
injection, then an exhaust gas inlet, visible to the eye because full of soot at this level
la
A small membrane on the top and voila!
I think this EGR will disappear in favor of a cone venturi, it is in my opinion the best
place to realize the gas entry Pantomes and even can be hold the butterfly that
reduces the air intake from the filter
Arbizon
I also think that you have the right vehicle for a panton, not for the same reasons as you
(direct injection, atmospheric), but because it is a small engine under powerful to trainer
this kind of vehicle so a motor that forces, you approach the tractors:
engine not busté and always solicited.
In my assembly Mercedes 3litres j, had a better performance when I put more wheels
big back (propulsion back) and if I found a differential has a larger ratio I
I'm sure it would improve the panton, such an engine does not force enough to 110kmh from where the
poor performance of the reactor, the builders chose to make diesel vehicles that
approaching the performance of gasoline cars and it hurts us with a panton, too much RPM
(revolutions per minute) for the little developed power.
We notice this in a hill driving. or if you pull a trailer.
The ERG valve on a diesel is mostly completely fouled, it's a patch on a
wooden leg, a panton has water in the same hole will do much better. even in the first
time when I rolled in the carpet (foot to the floor), my friend who stuck to the back, my
He said that soot dust was coming out. (with water this cleans the entire engine and the
tuayuterie.)
andré
For a gasoline engine with an inlet under the throttle valve in the intake manifold.
The main role of the valve in the reactor circuit is to cut the panton at idle,
not only when the bubbler is cold or the reactor cold, even when everything is hot it does not
must not have an inlet in the tubing, let alone spend water in the engine.
This results in overconsumption of fuel, and misfires
of the motor.
For those who have tried to put the ERG valve (injection of a small part of the exhaust)
permanently open on an engine, the idle becomes unstable and the consumption increases.
It should not be forgotten that the injection of a part of the exhaust gas also means
injection of a small amount of water vapor, very small, but which plays a role on
the pollution and on the consumption..Try to boquer the ERG valve in closed position on a
gasoline engine and test the consumption.
(Simply disconnect the small vaccine tube.)
Can you explain what the ERG valve is (is it the same as the EGR valve on which
we had a heated debate in the subject "the truth about LPG" that skidded yesterday?).
I do not know how to call you this cochonerie in France,
in North America in the language of garage owners
ERG valve Exaust Gas Recirculation
C, is a return of a small amount of exhaust gas in the engine intake for
reduce (Nox) that lowers the combustion temperature, it's a simplistic way and
economic that the builders put on all the vehicles to meet the standards of
pollution, this has a certain
success on gasoline engines, but on diesel engines
that's not worth the heck, I would even say that most of the vehicles I've seen this
valve is discreetly condemned closed
(a small blow of soldering iron on the pipe of plastic pressure) It is preferable to
do not open a debate on this
valve, the only analogy I brought is that it gets into the engine a small
amount of water vapor too.
In my editing I eliminated this valve, I needed this hole to make my entry
panton.
Now I wonder if should not keep all the control and the valve to send
just what comes out of the panton in the engine, the conditions are almost identical to the need
of the engine, it cuts in idle and it opens that has a certain power.
more elaborate motors that function modulated way)
The ERG valve is the same as EGR or exhaust gas recirculation valve, it's
again in fashion in recent years. On the diesels apparently it hangs pretty
quickly (fouling with soot, deposits) in tens of thousands of kms
and it stifles the engine miserably and hello pollution! Probably some mechanics
will block them too ... Although, replace them with new ones it pays!
Hence the interest of the Pantone in water doping that cleans the engine and makes him find his
original performance ...
I understood that it was the EGR valve that was but I wanted to be sure.
STP, so go see the heated debate that took place in the subject "the truth about LPG" where I
I am burned because supposedly I did not know anything about it, whereas I reported what
I had read and heard from dieselists and mechanics about the EGR valve. I saw some
just a dozen disassembled (very fouled with soot) and removed, the mechanic closes the hole
with a plate made by him.
Christophe created a topic "EGR valve" in which he put copies of newspaper articles
specialized (which I had already read) showing the aberration of this system. It was born in Europe in
1993 to meet new European pollution standards (only?), Because I believe
that at that time the catalytic converters were not yet mounted on diesel vehicles.
Keep me informed of your ideas on the subject.
It is indeed a very good idea to use this hole to put the pantone reactor ...
if I understood what you did.
I have 40 000km on the meter, with a (egr) pantone, I recycle the exhaust, and ca
rolled side depollution is massive on my old diesel !!! and goes from 9 to 6 liter according to the
proto ...! test on the bench!
It is true that the water of the bubbler gets dirty, but it is better in a small box than in the
nature !!! and then we are not the owner of the fuel that we buy !!!
so we collect and when we have a big package, (it does not take much space once
filtered) they are returned to their owner all together
Ok, the problem is actually not the EGR valve, but the fact that it is not expected
maintenance (dismantling + periodic cleaning as for the oil changes).
This is not recommended by the builders because it would increase the cost price of the diesels
(from what I read) and on some vehicles it is very labor intensive
(confirmed by a diesel-based Clermont-Fd-Ets Sauret).
What do you think?
I think you're riding with a pantonised diesel nevada? Does the petrol models know
F2N engine fuel? I have one that has 370000 kms behind the house (my son's old vehicle).
There is a guy on the forum who told me that it was good on this engine but I did not
no news of him.
Thank you in advance if you have pipes.
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 29, 2 edited once.
0 x
ideal air intake and fuel temperatures:
Speaking of ideal intake air temperature, I found these curves (Honda F1 1988)
where we see that the ideal air temperature is 70 ° and the fuel temperature 80 ° C for the
optimum consumption ...
I'm going to warm the gas and the air on the bike to see! Well, it does not represent
big differences (2% and 4% in less conso.)
michelm 7 jan 06
hot air intake => less dense air for the same intake volume => mass flowmeter
air perceives less air => the computer therefore injects less fuel => consumption and
power are therefore reduced on an atmospheric engine.
The regulation of the injection by the oxygen sensor at the exhaust will also correct the quantity
injected fuel.
Benoit-
You're all good that's exactly what happens on a motor control electronic,
For the loss of power, it is only at maximum power or if we keep the same opening
throttle (petrol engine)
Actually pulling hot air at 50% of the opening of the butterfly, just open a can
more and we have the same amount of air as if it was cold, the power becomes
identical.
The only difference between very cold air and hot air is that the vaporization of
gasoline is better, and the temperature at the end of compression is higher, so
faster burning
When I use the heater continuously on a plane in very cold weather, there is a slight
raising the temperature of the cylinder heads from 325 F to 360F but it is largely in the
engine parameters.
When the mixture is well adjusted for this hot air (good fuel dosage depending on
this hot air), there is a fuel economy.
(in our case it's not the economy that interests us, but autonomy, in the corners
remote fuel is rare, always think back
andré
Yes the computer will adjust the injection, depending on the air temperature (NTC probe
eg) and flow (flowmeter, depression or butterfly opening) etc, but in addition what
seems interesting to me that they regulate (they must always do) the temperature
air and fuel (and of course the 1,02 richness close to the stoichiometric ratio
ideal) for optimum fuel consumption. For qualification settings R = 1,23;
T = 40 ° C.
In motorcycle (on the road) it is a bit far, it is true that manufacturers do not care
hardly of consumption.
MichelM
On my Buick Parque Avenue 3,8litre multipoint, I do not have a panton.
I just installed a turbulator back of the butterfly and I made a coil in
copper on the hose that goes to the radiator.
The biggest gain on consumption is thanks to the turbulator (which I tested for a long time
several years later).
I add fuel heating and gain is 0,5 liter to 100 for heating
fuel,
With turbulator 8,54 liters at 100
With turbocharger and gasoline heater 7,86 liters at 100
(It's a big vehicle of the size and mass of a Cadillac)
On this vehicle I do not have air heating, but with the information that you come
to bring I will do tests.
Yet we've always been told: do not heat the air for an injection system
multipoint, I'm going to check this story ..
By the way do you know the ratio of bridges on Mercedes?
4 cylinders the same hunt as the 5 cylinders Is the bridge bigger? (so that the panton
works better, I put tires bigger, but I'm limited, so that it does not rub
So I thought of looking for another differrential to harness the engine. Send me
E-mail if you have information.
andré
If I'm not mistaken it's about 8% less heating fuel is more than the
curve, but it's true that it was a very different engine from F1 Turbo from 620CV for 1500cc
(200g / Cv / h) and 1000CV in qualification! All the better if it's more efficient on a motor of
tourism. For the air there are often systems that heat the intake air, right?
I am looking for bridge reports.
(Site for W123 http://www.mercedesw123.info/w-123/index.php?op=edito
michelm 8 jan 06
I think you have to make a difference between power and performance
In general one is the reverse of the other when modifying an engine
if we are looking for the maximum power of an engine
It takes a 12,5 gr air ratio for 1 gr gasoline
if we are looking for the maximum yield
it takes a ratio 18gr of air for 1 gr gasoline
The maximum power of a motor must be filled to the max so
butterfly wide open, cold air.
short and wide collector duct, large valve, rich mix
to achieve the highest rate of combustion. without regard to consumption.
The maximum efficiency of an engine is to look for a given power with the least fuel
possible.
the engine must be running in its maximum torque regime
it must have a relatively long and narrow intake manifold.
This favors the turbulence and the speed of the gas vein and the evaporation of gasoline,
there must be a long piston stroke that promotes relaxation,
air and fuel must be at a temperature above 15c
the engine must force (not to the exxation so that the mechanical friction of the piston deveinnent
not too important)
the Panam company had all experimented on these airliners at the end of the 30 years
to increase the radius of action,
this experience was used by the military during the Second World War.
The DB 605 was able to satisfy these constraints by the use of a fuel with a higher octane power
high, resulting in better compression ratios, more power to acceleration,
better over-feeding and the injection of a water-methanol anti-explosive mixture or
peroxides
Now when you take an old carburetor engine
as you have no posibility to make a wealth correction, it is certain that if
you make him swallow cold air is like opening the pappillon (more air that
between) and also depleted (the carburettor delivers gasoline depending on the volume of air
and not the mass, which goes into the venturi, he does not know that it is hot or cold)
If the engine downstream of hot air is as if we partially closed the pappillon, so loss
of power and also enriches the mixture for the reasons inversse cited above
Which means that the old engines in winter and in summer the fuel ratio is changed, it
does not adapt to filling
the motors (electronic) it is a measurement of the mass of air and the temperature which
enters the engine, the ratio is always 14,7 even if the fuel is heated the probe
lambda is there to detect the exhaust gases it corrects accordingly ..
In summary what you have to compare is burning 1kg hot air with the right ratio do the
differrence between cold 1 kg with the good ratio.
This principle is used in all industrial furnaces, preheating the combustion air for
increase the efficiency of the oven it achieves a fuel economy and we obtain a temperature
higher, for an engine what is disturbing is the final temperature at the end of compression on
is limited to not reach self-ignition, and this is where the water becomes advantageous in
a motor that downs the air too hot ..
andré
Search for maximum power (fresh air, optimized filling, etc., run the engine at high
P max diet)
it's not the same thing as looking for max yield (the most km with the minimum
fuel, run the engine at max torque, hot air and fuel ...).
For the F1 engine for qualifying: rich mix, cold air (40 ° C) and fuel
normal temperature, maximum turbo pressure, P = 1000CV.
Race configuration: poorer mixture, air at 70 ° C, heated fuel etc. P = 620CV.
MichelM
In the evolution of turbocharged engines, the generalization of air exchangers,
to lower the temperature of the air at admission, allowed a drop in
consumptions AND a gain in maximum power ...
For me, there is no antinomy between the search for power and performance,
one does not go without the other.
lumberjack
Yes there were exchangers otherwise the air temperature would have been largely
greater than 70 ° C.
I do not remember exactly but without exchanger we must turn 200 ° C for example,
too much. Therefore the exchangers are essential to go down to at least 70 ° C, for
go down to 40 ° C I do not know how they were doing (cooling by water?
it's forbidden now).
Michelm 09 Jan 06
The ideal must be the compromise between quantity of air and vaporization of gasoline.
Let 70 and 80 ° (air and gasoline).
air too hot: the piston pert of its energy to suck the air and it is missing because the air
hot takes up space.
(He can not inject enough gasoline to produce a big explosion).
some of the energy of this small explosion will be lost to suck some hot air.
air too cold: the air filling is optimal but the gasoline is poorly vaporized and burns badly.
some of this essence even comes out unbrealed.
and diesel?
ideal temperature of the air?
since there is no need to vaporize gasoline in this air.
and in direct fuel injection?
Idem
tryf
Speaking of ideal intake air temperature, I found these curves (Honda F1 1988)
where we see that the ideal air temperature is 70 ° and the fuel temperature 80 ° C for the
optimum consumption ...
I'm going to warm the gas and the air on the bike to see! Well, it does not represent
big differences (2% and 4% in less conso.)
michelm 7 jan 06
hot air intake => less dense air for the same intake volume => mass flowmeter
air perceives less air => the computer therefore injects less fuel => consumption and
power are therefore reduced on an atmospheric engine.
The regulation of the injection by the oxygen sensor at the exhaust will also correct the quantity
injected fuel.
Benoit-
You're all good that's exactly what happens on a motor control electronic,
For the loss of power, it is only at maximum power or if we keep the same opening
throttle (petrol engine)
Actually pulling hot air at 50% of the opening of the butterfly, just open a can
more and we have the same amount of air as if it was cold, the power becomes
identical.
The only difference between very cold air and hot air is that the vaporization of
gasoline is better, and the temperature at the end of compression is higher, so
faster burning
When I use the heater continuously on a plane in very cold weather, there is a slight
raising the temperature of the cylinder heads from 325 F to 360F but it is largely in the
engine parameters.
When the mixture is well adjusted for this hot air (good fuel dosage depending on
this hot air), there is a fuel economy.
(in our case it's not the economy that interests us, but autonomy, in the corners
remote fuel is rare, always think back
andré
Yes the computer will adjust the injection, depending on the air temperature (NTC probe
eg) and flow (flowmeter, depression or butterfly opening) etc, but in addition what
seems interesting to me that they regulate (they must always do) the temperature
air and fuel (and of course the 1,02 richness close to the stoichiometric ratio
ideal) for optimum fuel consumption. For qualification settings R = 1,23;
T = 40 ° C.
In motorcycle (on the road) it is a bit far, it is true that manufacturers do not care
hardly of consumption.
MichelM
On my Buick Parque Avenue 3,8litre multipoint, I do not have a panton.
I just installed a turbulator back of the butterfly and I made a coil in
copper on the hose that goes to the radiator.
The biggest gain on consumption is thanks to the turbulator (which I tested for a long time
several years later).
I add fuel heating and gain is 0,5 liter to 100 for heating
fuel,
With turbulator 8,54 liters at 100
With turbocharger and gasoline heater 7,86 liters at 100
(It's a big vehicle of the size and mass of a Cadillac)
On this vehicle I do not have air heating, but with the information that you come
to bring I will do tests.
Yet we've always been told: do not heat the air for an injection system
multipoint, I'm going to check this story ..
By the way do you know the ratio of bridges on Mercedes?
4 cylinders the same hunt as the 5 cylinders Is the bridge bigger? (so that the panton
works better, I put tires bigger, but I'm limited, so that it does not rub
So I thought of looking for another differrential to harness the engine. Send me
E-mail if you have information.
andré
If I'm not mistaken it's about 8% less heating fuel is more than the
curve, but it's true that it was a very different engine from F1 Turbo from 620CV for 1500cc
(200g / Cv / h) and 1000CV in qualification! All the better if it's more efficient on a motor of
tourism. For the air there are often systems that heat the intake air, right?
I am looking for bridge reports.
(Site for W123 http://www.mercedesw123.info/w-123/index.php?op=edito
michelm 8 jan 06
I think you have to make a difference between power and performance
In general one is the reverse of the other when modifying an engine
if we are looking for the maximum power of an engine
It takes a 12,5 gr air ratio for 1 gr gasoline
if we are looking for the maximum yield
it takes a ratio 18gr of air for 1 gr gasoline
The maximum power of a motor must be filled to the max so
butterfly wide open, cold air.
short and wide collector duct, large valve, rich mix
to achieve the highest rate of combustion. without regard to consumption.
The maximum efficiency of an engine is to look for a given power with the least fuel
possible.
the engine must be running in its maximum torque regime
it must have a relatively long and narrow intake manifold.
This favors the turbulence and the speed of the gas vein and the evaporation of gasoline,
there must be a long piston stroke that promotes relaxation,
air and fuel must be at a temperature above 15c
the engine must force (not to the exxation so that the mechanical friction of the piston deveinnent
not too important)
the Panam company had all experimented on these airliners at the end of the 30 years
to increase the radius of action,
this experience was used by the military during the Second World War.
The DB 605 was able to satisfy these constraints by the use of a fuel with a higher octane power
high, resulting in better compression ratios, more power to acceleration,
better over-feeding and the injection of a water-methanol anti-explosive mixture or
peroxides
Now when you take an old carburetor engine
as you have no posibility to make a wealth correction, it is certain that if
you make him swallow cold air is like opening the pappillon (more air that
between) and also depleted (the carburettor delivers gasoline depending on the volume of air
and not the mass, which goes into the venturi, he does not know that it is hot or cold)
If the engine downstream of hot air is as if we partially closed the pappillon, so loss
of power and also enriches the mixture for the reasons inversse cited above
Which means that the old engines in winter and in summer the fuel ratio is changed, it
does not adapt to filling
the motors (electronic) it is a measurement of the mass of air and the temperature which
enters the engine, the ratio is always 14,7 even if the fuel is heated the probe
lambda is there to detect the exhaust gases it corrects accordingly ..
In summary what you have to compare is burning 1kg hot air with the right ratio do the
differrence between cold 1 kg with the good ratio.
This principle is used in all industrial furnaces, preheating the combustion air for
increase the efficiency of the oven it achieves a fuel economy and we obtain a temperature
higher, for an engine what is disturbing is the final temperature at the end of compression on
is limited to not reach self-ignition, and this is where the water becomes advantageous in
a motor that downs the air too hot ..
andré
Search for maximum power (fresh air, optimized filling, etc., run the engine at high
P max diet)
it's not the same thing as looking for max yield (the most km with the minimum
fuel, run the engine at max torque, hot air and fuel ...).
For the F1 engine for qualifying: rich mix, cold air (40 ° C) and fuel
normal temperature, maximum turbo pressure, P = 1000CV.
Race configuration: poorer mixture, air at 70 ° C, heated fuel etc. P = 620CV.
MichelM
In the evolution of turbocharged engines, the generalization of air exchangers,
to lower the temperature of the air at admission, allowed a drop in
consumptions AND a gain in maximum power ...
For me, there is no antinomy between the search for power and performance,
one does not go without the other.
lumberjack
Yes there were exchangers otherwise the air temperature would have been largely
greater than 70 ° C.
I do not remember exactly but without exchanger we must turn 200 ° C for example,
too much. Therefore the exchangers are essential to go down to at least 70 ° C, for
go down to 40 ° C I do not know how they were doing (cooling by water?
it's forbidden now).
Michelm 09 Jan 06
The ideal must be the compromise between quantity of air and vaporization of gasoline.
Let 70 and 80 ° (air and gasoline).
air too hot: the piston pert of its energy to suck the air and it is missing because the air
hot takes up space.
(He can not inject enough gasoline to produce a big explosion).
some of the energy of this small explosion will be lost to suck some hot air.
air too cold: the air filling is optimal but the gasoline is poorly vaporized and burns badly.
some of this essence even comes out unbrealed.
and diesel?
ideal temperature of the air?
since there is no need to vaporize gasoline in this air.
and in direct fuel injection?
Idem
tryf
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 31, 1 edited once.
0 x
tests:
During many tests, my guide was the differrence between T ° exhaust, before reactor
and after the reactor, I was looking for the lowest exhaust temperature in the end, without
however, going below 100c for the output steam means 3 thermocouples.
With experience I keep only 1 thermocouple, it is the one of output of vapor, the only one
thing I want to know: if the stem gets wet.
Currently this is the main problem of the reactor. Obviously there is only to send less water
and this regulates part of the problem, but this method is by far the one that gives the most
performance. So depending on the available heat you have to put water to the maximum without
wet the stem.
C, is the same principle for the advance of an engine: the maximum possible without this clicking
(just under the detonation point) in all conditions (that's what knoc sensor does).
andré
(knoc sensor = variable advance?).
tryf
On the Mercedes 300TD the temperature is definitely lower
I'm working on 110c and sometimes 90c.
To verrify it just passes air in the reactor and opens the machine a little in a
isolated country road ..
Without doing big steps just look at the color of the copper pipe after a hike to
background on a few km.
A little note it gets hotter with a little bit of water than just air, if you
slightly increases the water this starts to fall to stabilize it.
Today I just tested the Van Lumina Chevrolet V6 engine (gasoline)
I kept the steam output temperature between 120c and 150c in the ribs that went up
at most 170c, driving
went 100, 110 kmh back it is done on snowy road, wet sticky, so less fast is
90kmh.
I filled the cork (to the brim) at departure and on arrival
Either 267km consomation 22,8 ordinary liters 87octane
for an engine of this size it is not wonderful but it is acceptable.
I do not have a phenomenon of engine clutch (take turns) on the diesel just a
improvement on consumption.
in my first assembly I could not get steam pantonée 100c this was held
to 80 °.
On the next assembly j, throttled the exhaust gas flow around the reactor and
preheat the water mist that comes out of the carburettor in a kind
dry bubbler (before the reactor)
measured temperaure, it is pantonée steam outlet, and the other is the exhaust outlet.
The entry exhaust: it becomes difficult because I am stuck on the turbo I do not want to drill
a hole in the cast iron
With this change (especially throttling of the exhaust gases around the reactor), I have a
net gain on heat, but for the consomation side this is not improved much
better than the front mounting.
I'm a little confused, that's why I do not want to comment without knowing too much
why did this have so little change,
The tests I'm doing with a carburetor is not nearly as perfect as with a bubbler:
when I cut the water, it only passes air and if I roll quickly enough to the carpet (foot
to the floor), it goes up to the exit of the reactor around 7,2 millivolts if you add
very little water at this time it rises even higher 7,6 7,8 as soon as you increase
the water is going to decrease to be around 4,5 if you drive to 100kmh if
you slow down it drops fast enough.
Also I think that when I increase the water the stem gets partially wet and the reactor does not
does not work anymore.
andré
(how are tensions measured?)
tryf
on the petrol engine, if you consume too much water: he starts to have misfires
so it can "consume" less water than diesel.
diesel, we can put him in excess: he does not flinch except for a small
white smoke back that does not change much about the power of the engine.
andré
tests Mercedes 300 TD 3litres 5 cylinders:
First test, at the exit of the air filter I put a sheet to close more than 50% the
hole that is close to 80mm at this place.
On the road j, have reached 175 kmh, never j, have succeeded
to do this before: maximum 165 and dust.
no fummé I think that the reactor was
for something, but I can not say it.
second test, eliminate this sheet that is a little too handy.
Turbo made 60mm of diameter I made a venturi which in its narrow part makes 35mm of
diameter, the bottom vehicle rolls as before at 165 kmh (with water or without water in the
reactor)
Differrence: when I put water and the reactor is hot, I win on
the acceleration especially in recovery, when the automatic transmission remained in action.
Another thing the air filter may date 2000 and I'm not ready to change it it makes me the
restriction that I need, with all these restrictions I can do 6,45 liter 100km
en route and 7,9 liters in town, for the water it's a little bit of a liter in town and 1,2 has 1,5
liter on the road following the speed which is from 100kmh to 115 kmh.
Lastly, I removed the air filter for a test I did not win anything lost I did not
not even notice anything, it is true that on this model of Mercedes the air filter and bigger
a V8 of 6,6 liters of displacement they did what looks like a tank.
And next time I remake a venturi of 30 mm instead of 35 mm, I will restrict it
until I lose on high speed or start smoking.
andré
I also thought that it was necessary to heat it to cotton (at most), another mistake.
if the engine forces and there is a lot of heat involved in the reactor:
you have to give him more drops of water and more air.
For that a bubbler fulfills its functions well:
it always gives an air close to the saturation, we can reproduce that with a carburettor
but more delicate to adjust, it becomes easy to exceed the saturation, so with the
carburetor is better put less water.
Consumption of 1 liter on time is only a reference for very specific conditions
The consumption of the reactor depends only on the temperature of the escapement generated,
requested power to the engine.
The product air and water that passes into the reactor must be in a proportion of
that the temperature of the reactor does not descend too low or too high.
The only reference I currently know is the steam outlet temperature of the
reactor, call this as you want gas get, steam,
or? I do not know, what comes out of it I just know that it must have some
temperature for it to work (well) and I do not know exactly yet what is the ideal,
but I know it's not high temperature ...
andré
small engine:
This morning, I made a series of 30 measurements, with and without reactor. It appears that with the
reactor running, there is less power and more power below 2300 turns by
minute (flap of the original full-throttle carburetor and engine loaded until the speed of
desired rotation)
But it is only with a very precise setting. Now, for high diets, I think it
send a little more water for the same proportion of air because I measured the aspiration of
reactor and it's almost nothing. (and it does not bring anything either level yield)
What do you suggest to me to have more suction in the reactor ??
This after, we repeat the same test with the same settings but without water, just with air
to see if sometimes, the low-speed gain would not be due to a too rich original carb
gasoline ...
after a certain time of walking, at the bottom of the bubbler gasoline it remains a residue like oil or
Milky color heavy oil unusable for combustion, especially if you are bubbling
to the exhaust, (part of the water of the combustion recondense in the bubbler.)
small petrol engine:
If you want the syphone motor to have a big speed you absolutely need a venturi in the duct
engine intake to suck what comes out of the reactor.
Do not forget that when the butterfly is wide open:
In front of or behind the butterfly it is almost the same depression, so weak especially
if the motor forces.
The only depression is due to the restriction of the tubing due to its length and section or
his elbows.
The venturi for an expreience does not need to be sophisticated this can be just a
entered into an elbow with a penetrating tube, with a slight restriction in the
tubing without, however, curbing admission.
Inspire yourself from an original carburetor venturi.
You do it at the same size, and you bring the pantone tube into the same place or
was the gas sprinkler.
But you can do simpler and it gives acceptable results:
a double cone.
In the narrow part you plant the tube of what comes out of the reactor. (full
regime that siphons the double that in the tubing, verrified with a small tube of plastic
who sucks water in a recipian that almost pulls 1 meter high
andré
2 time 100% pantonne:
I did a test on an 2Tps and we broke the engine at the level of the bearings
self-lubricating.
On the other hand the couple piston / shirt held .. strange thing but which translates a much better
combustion (it is the unburned particles, among others, which pose problems of
friction in an engine)
econology ????
no problems of serage piston-shirt ??????
tryf
burner:
With water in a burner I have never managed anything interesting and I do not have
heard someone to do anything good, I dropped water into a burner ....
Reactor temperature:
Lastly I realized that the reactor was not working cold, not because the
reactor is cold but because the air that the downstream engine is cold.
Worse still when it is very cold:
the reactor outlet is hotter than in summer?
This summer I removed the suction of the hot air inlet of the reactor,
too hot it less performais
I also noticed that the panton is more efficient on the 2000 RPM low revolution motors and
less.
on short trips it is ineffective and even I would say it slightly increases the
consomation.
It is effective when the engine pulls it is to say that it would take vehicles with a ratio
(bridge) bigger
I tested with larger wheels and it's better, (I would need a (more differrential
large)
A bubbler is a carburetor éfficace
A bubbler is a bubbler air compares to escape?
Currently I test a mixed bubbler little exhaust and air.
A bubbler under strong depression, versus a bubbler under low depression? establish the right
depression.
It is better to consume little water than to consume a lot of water.
large drops of or the effectiveness of the filter in the top of the bubbler.
Those who have experienced a (reactor) too hot, or rather a bubbler too hot is what the
findings
The problem with the pumping doping water sometimes works well and sometimes it does not work, it
will take observation and communication on the findings so that we arrive at
isolate what works and what does not work
Example several tractors mounted SPAD many have good results and other
no results, it would be interesting to see what is differrent it can only be the
way it's mounted since they are all built in the same way,
I do not think that this was due solely to the design of the engine.
Doping with water and more efficient on high compression diesel engines, yet the
reactor is colder.
A big rod reactor of 40mm is it as efficient as several very small 3mm, or even
no rod rendered in these small diameters.
A restriction on the intake of a diesel engine normally results in a loss of
power, yet with water doping the engine withstands a reduction of 25% without
there is a big differrence on the power.
I managed to make some trips of 400km and a consomation of 6,45 liters with a diesel
3 liters of cylinder capacity
I repeated this test several times it remains in these values, but on smaller
trips of 100km and less I do not arrive at these figures it varies from 7,5 to 8 liters, and
yet I drive less quickly. When autumn arrives as soon as the temperature has dropped below
15c finished the good results it is 9 liters and more like before no reactor.
andré
water + alcohol in buleur:
to put alcohol in a bubbler is good on paper, but in real life in practice
we forget that, on each trip the alcohol evaporates and the next morning it is frozen in all
its mass, I prefer to put hot water when I do the filling.
andré
not stupid at all:
With a bubbler we can only make the air saturated with moisture and in small quantities, it is
for that reason it has to be hot to be able to absorb more moisture always
slightly below the saturation point, once passed through the reactor, the temperature
increases and it becomes hot air well below the saturation point,
What comes out of the reactor if we mix it has a very cold air, there is a good chance that we
found after dilution in a situation
of saturated air and see even condensation, while in summer when we send the humid air of
reactor in the summer air that the downstream engine is still found in an air far away from the
saturation,
I would even say that this air mass is able to take even more water, but with
the cold air is quickly limited to reach saturation.
Even if we spend more than one liter per hour in such a mass of air, a simple calculates
cubic meters of air that the engine downstream
if this air was saturated we realize that it is a lot of water
Although something else is happening in the reactor than doing moist air, I find that
warm the air has improved my consumption, The difficulty is the big variations
temperatures that are experienced, makes it difficult to have a hot temperature, for the air that the
downstream engine.
but conso: see also air at 70 ° in standard engine.
Place a thermocouple in the exhaust gases at the reactor inlet and another at the outlet of the
reactor and finds, you'll see that exhaust gases lose half of their temperature
passing on the reactor in normal operation and more than half when the engine forces.
If we consider that the energy in the exhaust gases is almost identical or superior to
the one that runs the engine
it's a lot..
I do not know a heat exchanger as small and as efficient to absorb as much heat
in such a short time.
the other question that I ask myself, or go all this energy,
in evaporation? in the drops of water?, if this energy impairs the function of the
engine, it would become warmer, and it is not.
I have the same impression as you, that in such a short time, at the speed that this haze
circulates on the stem, even when worn red, there are still droplets at the reactor outlet,
this would explain why with an exit duct, we occasionally handle shocs
electric.
In the case of my small engine where the reactor is as big as on the car, the
differrential gas temperature exhaust input / output reactor, is huge, I can at
final touch with a bare hand the silencer, On the car it is 50%
When in the air (overheated) I just tested with a thermometer in the air filter and
preheating the air, this gives
outside temperature this afternoon - 7 while driving at 100kmh
air temperature 22,5c, while driving at 50kmh 32c, and in town at the engine traffic lights at
idle more than 45c,
Obviously on a diesel it would be differrent, but on a gasoline engine the consomation of air
is proportional to the gas pedal and as I pull my air with a sheet on the collector of a
next to 3 V6 cylinders.
When we talk about overheating the air, I think we need to talk more about hot summer air ..
I could also give you other tests that I did on an airplane with continuous use of
air reheating, Obviously I'm talking about running an engine in extreme conditions -20
and more
Most gasoline engines operate better if the air they downstream and located in
from 15c,
When it is very cold the temperature of the EGT exhaust gas rises abnormally on an airplane
as if walking too poor, it improves with altitude.
the optimum temperature of the best engine performance, air + gasoline was of the order of 70 ° C
(Honda in F1 in the 80 years). So warming the air is not necessarily bad
(Contrary to what I thought at first, the colder it is, the more air comes in)
mixture with gasoline is certainly more homogeneous ... I hope the positive effect of doping
to water is not only to heat the intake air to optimize the gasoline air mixture ...
my payload at 8 years old and 145000 km, she sucks 8l / 100; no turbo or electronics,
classic diesel but 2,4lde cyl, low revs, tractor torque ... a big square made express
for the pantone by toyota !!
Flexible driving at low speeds, winding roads, an engine that sometimes forces you
when I stuff the pickup ... everything is conducive to pantone!
water quantity:
To know the right amount of water rolls at a good speed stabilized.
without water the temperature will stabilize, then quietly opens the water (very can).
Observe the temperature it will go up slightly, wait for it takes time there is a lot
of inertia for the answer.
Increases a hair the water the temperature must still increase.
As soon as it goes down, it means that you have exceeded the maximum dose of water.
Mark the position of the water valve, and start again, the ideal point is when the
temperature has reached a slight increase with water.
This is the same principle that I use on aircraft engines in altitude you pull on the mixture
until the engine goes down and then you give him some more to find his
diet. the only differrence with the water: it is not necessary that you pass straight (that you
exceeds the dose), the best is to put less.
Do not forget that a wet rod does not dry instantly if you do not have the means
to cut the water completely.
Here, after a little ballad of more than 100km in foggy weather not easy to make
flow settings.
The flow of water injected when there is fog must be greatly reduced.
So much so that I'm not sure that water was flowing in the pipe.
I think that by the depression and the very small opening of the water valve in addition to the
reheating in the exchanger, the water had to arrive at the water carbu in the form of droplets.
I believe I have passed the test André is talking about. I turned on the water after closing
several times the reducer of flow and the temperature is mounted little by little. Temperature
from 123 ° C to 126 ° C in three km. Then she went down very slowly to 110 ° C
on more than 15km. Then it is raised to 115 ° C to stabilize it.
During many tests, my guide was the differrence between T ° exhaust, before reactor
and after the reactor, I was looking for the lowest exhaust temperature in the end, without
however, going below 100c for the output steam means 3 thermocouples.
With experience I keep only 1 thermocouple, it is the one of output of vapor, the only one
thing I want to know: if the stem gets wet.
Currently this is the main problem of the reactor. Obviously there is only to send less water
and this regulates part of the problem, but this method is by far the one that gives the most
performance. So depending on the available heat you have to put water to the maximum without
wet the stem.
C, is the same principle for the advance of an engine: the maximum possible without this clicking
(just under the detonation point) in all conditions (that's what knoc sensor does).
andré
(knoc sensor = variable advance?).
tryf
On the Mercedes 300TD the temperature is definitely lower
I'm working on 110c and sometimes 90c.
To verrify it just passes air in the reactor and opens the machine a little in a
isolated country road ..
Without doing big steps just look at the color of the copper pipe after a hike to
background on a few km.
A little note it gets hotter with a little bit of water than just air, if you
slightly increases the water this starts to fall to stabilize it.
Today I just tested the Van Lumina Chevrolet V6 engine (gasoline)
I kept the steam output temperature between 120c and 150c in the ribs that went up
at most 170c, driving
went 100, 110 kmh back it is done on snowy road, wet sticky, so less fast is
90kmh.
I filled the cork (to the brim) at departure and on arrival
Either 267km consomation 22,8 ordinary liters 87octane
for an engine of this size it is not wonderful but it is acceptable.
I do not have a phenomenon of engine clutch (take turns) on the diesel just a
improvement on consumption.
in my first assembly I could not get steam pantonée 100c this was held
to 80 °.
On the next assembly j, throttled the exhaust gas flow around the reactor and
preheat the water mist that comes out of the carburettor in a kind
dry bubbler (before the reactor)
measured temperaure, it is pantonée steam outlet, and the other is the exhaust outlet.
The entry exhaust: it becomes difficult because I am stuck on the turbo I do not want to drill
a hole in the cast iron
With this change (especially throttling of the exhaust gases around the reactor), I have a
net gain on heat, but for the consomation side this is not improved much
better than the front mounting.
I'm a little confused, that's why I do not want to comment without knowing too much
why did this have so little change,
The tests I'm doing with a carburetor is not nearly as perfect as with a bubbler:
when I cut the water, it only passes air and if I roll quickly enough to the carpet (foot
to the floor), it goes up to the exit of the reactor around 7,2 millivolts if you add
very little water at this time it rises even higher 7,6 7,8 as soon as you increase
the water is going to decrease to be around 4,5 if you drive to 100kmh if
you slow down it drops fast enough.
Also I think that when I increase the water the stem gets partially wet and the reactor does not
does not work anymore.
andré
(how are tensions measured?)
tryf
on the petrol engine, if you consume too much water: he starts to have misfires
so it can "consume" less water than diesel.
diesel, we can put him in excess: he does not flinch except for a small
white smoke back that does not change much about the power of the engine.
andré
tests Mercedes 300 TD 3litres 5 cylinders:
First test, at the exit of the air filter I put a sheet to close more than 50% the
hole that is close to 80mm at this place.
On the road j, have reached 175 kmh, never j, have succeeded
to do this before: maximum 165 and dust.
no fummé I think that the reactor was
for something, but I can not say it.
second test, eliminate this sheet that is a little too handy.
Turbo made 60mm of diameter I made a venturi which in its narrow part makes 35mm of
diameter, the bottom vehicle rolls as before at 165 kmh (with water or without water in the
reactor)
Differrence: when I put water and the reactor is hot, I win on
the acceleration especially in recovery, when the automatic transmission remained in action.
Another thing the air filter may date 2000 and I'm not ready to change it it makes me the
restriction that I need, with all these restrictions I can do 6,45 liter 100km
en route and 7,9 liters in town, for the water it's a little bit of a liter in town and 1,2 has 1,5
liter on the road following the speed which is from 100kmh to 115 kmh.
Lastly, I removed the air filter for a test I did not win anything lost I did not
not even notice anything, it is true that on this model of Mercedes the air filter and bigger
a V8 of 6,6 liters of displacement they did what looks like a tank.
And next time I remake a venturi of 30 mm instead of 35 mm, I will restrict it
until I lose on high speed or start smoking.
andré
I also thought that it was necessary to heat it to cotton (at most), another mistake.
if the engine forces and there is a lot of heat involved in the reactor:
you have to give him more drops of water and more air.
For that a bubbler fulfills its functions well:
it always gives an air close to the saturation, we can reproduce that with a carburettor
but more delicate to adjust, it becomes easy to exceed the saturation, so with the
carburetor is better put less water.
Consumption of 1 liter on time is only a reference for very specific conditions
The consumption of the reactor depends only on the temperature of the escapement generated,
requested power to the engine.
The product air and water that passes into the reactor must be in a proportion of
that the temperature of the reactor does not descend too low or too high.
The only reference I currently know is the steam outlet temperature of the
reactor, call this as you want gas get, steam,
or? I do not know, what comes out of it I just know that it must have some
temperature for it to work (well) and I do not know exactly yet what is the ideal,
but I know it's not high temperature ...
andré
small engine:
This morning, I made a series of 30 measurements, with and without reactor. It appears that with the
reactor running, there is less power and more power below 2300 turns by
minute (flap of the original full-throttle carburetor and engine loaded until the speed of
desired rotation)
But it is only with a very precise setting. Now, for high diets, I think it
send a little more water for the same proportion of air because I measured the aspiration of
reactor and it's almost nothing. (and it does not bring anything either level yield)
What do you suggest to me to have more suction in the reactor ??
This after, we repeat the same test with the same settings but without water, just with air
to see if sometimes, the low-speed gain would not be due to a too rich original carb
gasoline ...
after a certain time of walking, at the bottom of the bubbler gasoline it remains a residue like oil or
Milky color heavy oil unusable for combustion, especially if you are bubbling
to the exhaust, (part of the water of the combustion recondense in the bubbler.)
small petrol engine:
If you want the syphone motor to have a big speed you absolutely need a venturi in the duct
engine intake to suck what comes out of the reactor.
Do not forget that when the butterfly is wide open:
In front of or behind the butterfly it is almost the same depression, so weak especially
if the motor forces.
The only depression is due to the restriction of the tubing due to its length and section or
his elbows.
The venturi for an expreience does not need to be sophisticated this can be just a
entered into an elbow with a penetrating tube, with a slight restriction in the
tubing without, however, curbing admission.
Inspire yourself from an original carburetor venturi.
You do it at the same size, and you bring the pantone tube into the same place or
was the gas sprinkler.
But you can do simpler and it gives acceptable results:
a double cone.
In the narrow part you plant the tube of what comes out of the reactor. (full
regime that siphons the double that in the tubing, verrified with a small tube of plastic
who sucks water in a recipian that almost pulls 1 meter high
andré
2 time 100% pantonne:
I did a test on an 2Tps and we broke the engine at the level of the bearings
self-lubricating.
On the other hand the couple piston / shirt held .. strange thing but which translates a much better
combustion (it is the unburned particles, among others, which pose problems of
friction in an engine)
econology ????
no problems of serage piston-shirt ??????
tryf
burner:
With water in a burner I have never managed anything interesting and I do not have
heard someone to do anything good, I dropped water into a burner ....
Reactor temperature:
Lastly I realized that the reactor was not working cold, not because the
reactor is cold but because the air that the downstream engine is cold.
Worse still when it is very cold:
the reactor outlet is hotter than in summer?
This summer I removed the suction of the hot air inlet of the reactor,
too hot it less performais
I also noticed that the panton is more efficient on the 2000 RPM low revolution motors and
less.
on short trips it is ineffective and even I would say it slightly increases the
consomation.
It is effective when the engine pulls it is to say that it would take vehicles with a ratio
(bridge) bigger
I tested with larger wheels and it's better, (I would need a (more differrential
large)
A bubbler is a carburetor éfficace
A bubbler is a bubbler air compares to escape?
Currently I test a mixed bubbler little exhaust and air.
A bubbler under strong depression, versus a bubbler under low depression? establish the right
depression.
It is better to consume little water than to consume a lot of water.
large drops of or the effectiveness of the filter in the top of the bubbler.
Those who have experienced a (reactor) too hot, or rather a bubbler too hot is what the
findings
The problem with the pumping doping water sometimes works well and sometimes it does not work, it
will take observation and communication on the findings so that we arrive at
isolate what works and what does not work
Example several tractors mounted SPAD many have good results and other
no results, it would be interesting to see what is differrent it can only be the
way it's mounted since they are all built in the same way,
I do not think that this was due solely to the design of the engine.
Doping with water and more efficient on high compression diesel engines, yet the
reactor is colder.
A big rod reactor of 40mm is it as efficient as several very small 3mm, or even
no rod rendered in these small diameters.
A restriction on the intake of a diesel engine normally results in a loss of
power, yet with water doping the engine withstands a reduction of 25% without
there is a big differrence on the power.
I managed to make some trips of 400km and a consomation of 6,45 liters with a diesel
3 liters of cylinder capacity
I repeated this test several times it remains in these values, but on smaller
trips of 100km and less I do not arrive at these figures it varies from 7,5 to 8 liters, and
yet I drive less quickly. When autumn arrives as soon as the temperature has dropped below
15c finished the good results it is 9 liters and more like before no reactor.
andré
water + alcohol in buleur:
to put alcohol in a bubbler is good on paper, but in real life in practice
we forget that, on each trip the alcohol evaporates and the next morning it is frozen in all
its mass, I prefer to put hot water when I do the filling.
andré
not stupid at all:
With a bubbler we can only make the air saturated with moisture and in small quantities, it is
for that reason it has to be hot to be able to absorb more moisture always
slightly below the saturation point, once passed through the reactor, the temperature
increases and it becomes hot air well below the saturation point,
What comes out of the reactor if we mix it has a very cold air, there is a good chance that we
found after dilution in a situation
of saturated air and see even condensation, while in summer when we send the humid air of
reactor in the summer air that the downstream engine is still found in an air far away from the
saturation,
I would even say that this air mass is able to take even more water, but with
the cold air is quickly limited to reach saturation.
Even if we spend more than one liter per hour in such a mass of air, a simple calculates
cubic meters of air that the engine downstream
if this air was saturated we realize that it is a lot of water
Although something else is happening in the reactor than doing moist air, I find that
warm the air has improved my consumption, The difficulty is the big variations
temperatures that are experienced, makes it difficult to have a hot temperature, for the air that the
downstream engine.
but conso: see also air at 70 ° in standard engine.
Place a thermocouple in the exhaust gases at the reactor inlet and another at the outlet of the
reactor and finds, you'll see that exhaust gases lose half of their temperature
passing on the reactor in normal operation and more than half when the engine forces.
If we consider that the energy in the exhaust gases is almost identical or superior to
the one that runs the engine
it's a lot..
I do not know a heat exchanger as small and as efficient to absorb as much heat
in such a short time.
the other question that I ask myself, or go all this energy,
in evaporation? in the drops of water?, if this energy impairs the function of the
engine, it would become warmer, and it is not.
I have the same impression as you, that in such a short time, at the speed that this haze
circulates on the stem, even when worn red, there are still droplets at the reactor outlet,
this would explain why with an exit duct, we occasionally handle shocs
electric.
In the case of my small engine where the reactor is as big as on the car, the
differrential gas temperature exhaust input / output reactor, is huge, I can at
final touch with a bare hand the silencer, On the car it is 50%
When in the air (overheated) I just tested with a thermometer in the air filter and
preheating the air, this gives
outside temperature this afternoon - 7 while driving at 100kmh
air temperature 22,5c, while driving at 50kmh 32c, and in town at the engine traffic lights at
idle more than 45c,
Obviously on a diesel it would be differrent, but on a gasoline engine the consomation of air
is proportional to the gas pedal and as I pull my air with a sheet on the collector of a
next to 3 V6 cylinders.
When we talk about overheating the air, I think we need to talk more about hot summer air ..
I could also give you other tests that I did on an airplane with continuous use of
air reheating, Obviously I'm talking about running an engine in extreme conditions -20
and more
Most gasoline engines operate better if the air they downstream and located in
from 15c,
When it is very cold the temperature of the EGT exhaust gas rises abnormally on an airplane
as if walking too poor, it improves with altitude.
the optimum temperature of the best engine performance, air + gasoline was of the order of 70 ° C
(Honda in F1 in the 80 years). So warming the air is not necessarily bad
(Contrary to what I thought at first, the colder it is, the more air comes in)
mixture with gasoline is certainly more homogeneous ... I hope the positive effect of doping
to water is not only to heat the intake air to optimize the gasoline air mixture ...
my payload at 8 years old and 145000 km, she sucks 8l / 100; no turbo or electronics,
classic diesel but 2,4lde cyl, low revs, tractor torque ... a big square made express
for the pantone by toyota !!
Flexible driving at low speeds, winding roads, an engine that sometimes forces you
when I stuff the pickup ... everything is conducive to pantone!
water quantity:
To know the right amount of water rolls at a good speed stabilized.
without water the temperature will stabilize, then quietly opens the water (very can).
Observe the temperature it will go up slightly, wait for it takes time there is a lot
of inertia for the answer.
Increases a hair the water the temperature must still increase.
As soon as it goes down, it means that you have exceeded the maximum dose of water.
Mark the position of the water valve, and start again, the ideal point is when the
temperature has reached a slight increase with water.
This is the same principle that I use on aircraft engines in altitude you pull on the mixture
until the engine goes down and then you give him some more to find his
diet. the only differrence with the water: it is not necessary that you pass straight (that you
exceeds the dose), the best is to put less.
Do not forget that a wet rod does not dry instantly if you do not have the means
to cut the water completely.
Here, after a little ballad of more than 100km in foggy weather not easy to make
flow settings.
The flow of water injected when there is fog must be greatly reduced.
So much so that I'm not sure that water was flowing in the pipe.
I think that by the depression and the very small opening of the water valve in addition to the
reheating in the exchanger, the water had to arrive at the water carbu in the form of droplets.
I believe I have passed the test André is talking about. I turned on the water after closing
several times the reducer of flow and the temperature is mounted little by little. Temperature
from 123 ° C to 126 ° C in three km. Then she went down very slowly to 110 ° C
on more than 15km. Then it is raised to 115 ° C to stabilize it.
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 34, 1 edited once.
0 x
construction:
water doping:
a 150mm long stainless steel rod of 12,7 or 14 mm in a stainless steel tube with a set of 1mm or
slightly more max 1,5mm
the length of the stem: from 100mm to 200mm, 100 mm for a big stem
The most used material is stainless steel, it does not rust, weld well, its defect it
is not good heat conductor, so if possible for the reactor body do not exceed
2mm thick
For the full gasoline or diesel fueling the stem works best when it is placed at the end of the
hot spring and that an antechamber is left before the stem.
For the doping with the water it is the opposite it is necessary to leave an antechamber on the warm side therefore the stem
on the cold end
If you walk with two carburettors it is easier to put them in parralle one for fuel
one for the water if possible the one for the smaller water
It is imperative that it is very small otherwise it does not work
for the rod it must be at least 100mm farther than the reactor to make a
antechamber that improves the fuel oil, on the carburettor it takes a fitting aim
of wealth either on the line if you use that of reduced model leaving a small leak
of air on the line has fuel hose with a T and small aquarium valves this makes a
kind of emulsion it improves the spraying of the oil. The rod you take what you have under
the hand provided that the game is around the most current 1mm here is 1 / 2 inches is
12,7mm I do not believe that the diameter close to these values makes a big difference the
length is less than 200mm if the engine gives off a lot of heat you can go to 100mm.
In order for the panton to receive sufficient heat, it is not necessary to
increase the flow of exhaust gases around the reactor
on the contrary, it is necessary to make an intelligent restriction on the beginning of the reactor, ideally
make it a kind of converging to channel heat compress on the reactor without
while exaggerating, do so with the minimum of restriction.
what you need to know when you relax the exhaust gases they cool, when
compresses the gases it heats up.
In the exhaust system it is at the passage of the valves and in the cylinder head that they are at their
more narrow, In general the reactor is placed in the original conduit, a restriction of 25%
is quite acceptable even desirable for the operation of the reactor.
The restriction in the exhaust duct is felt only when the engine is a
full power (case of short duration on a car)
Do not forget that the exhaust gases when it pass on an operational reactor
lose half and + of their temperature so they are much less bulky on the end
of the reactor.
In my case I push the extreme reduction, is around 50% around the reactor, the
only downside is when I roll over for 5 minutes the engine temperature
increases but not alarmingly ..
For the end toasting or the sponge at the top of the bubbler is effective it blocks all the drops,
it is clearly visible in the outlet tube of the bubbler without the grating after a stop.
frost in the pipe while it is dry with the sponge.
When the reactor does not heat anything: I can not certify it, but to see the color of the
stem it becomes blue fast enough in a motor 100% panton, maybe the reactor heater
nothing but he's eating a hell of a lot of heat to the exhaust gas and he's transferring it into all
what goes into the reactor, now we say more than that it would be extrapolation ..
In your big pipe assembly you took into account the size of the pipes before the reactor and
after the reactor, the section of these ducts must be much greater than the space
between rod and tube, so that the restriction therefore the high speed is done
between the rod and the reactor,
To the reactor operation must speed between rod and tube
the opposite of a heat exchanger.
In my case for an 19 rod I put a pipe of 3 / 4 pipe
copper (which is found to be twice the normally leads to a 12,7mm rod).
a "spad" type assembly for example has an engine rod which is anything but aero-dynamic and which
must generate a lot of turbulence during the passage of humid air in the reactor, and
yet I have the impression that the output is higher than a mounting with a profiled core.
As for the turbulence in the reactor, the rules are quite similar to the one that
l, we meet in the current engine intake manifolds
to know too much turbulence damage to the filling.
not enough turbulence to the mixture.
it's the same with the reactor
not enough turbulence to spray mopsticks
and too much turbulence affecting the speed of passage of the gas as well as friction on the stem and
reactor tube.
So you see we have to juggle these two extremes that are opposed to the smooth running of the
reactor.
As for the electrical insulation of the stem, we talked about the forum .
After a while of walking
(Lapping in plain language) all the rods become covered with an insulating layer, which
rule the problem.
when it comes to insulation, even a welded rod at one end does not change much,
when we talk about insulation it is not the stem, the drops of water rubs on a layer
insulating oxide or deposit (blue color rifle) is a bit like the insulation of the sheets of a
transformer, the oxidation is sufficient and even that they are all welded at a place to
remove the bolts. it does not affect the transformer.
From a thermal point of view, it is advantageous for this to circulate in opposite directions, but if the
reactor is short (100mm rod) the error is diminished, it's a bit as if the source of
heat hit the reactor at 90 degrees, as in the flame of a burner, if the heat is
this will slightly affect performance. Counter-sense has no role on the
internal friction of the drops. If the rod had measured 300 mm it would be more embarrassing.
Copper reactor tube, never tried, it seems to me a tangent with the heat, sutout
on a gasoline engine. Copper rod j, talked about it, the temperature of the rod is not so
high that the copper supports it, but it is the least efficient of the few metals tested.
Brass I have not tried, duraluminium c, is as good as steel and it is rode
easily rapid oxidation, when has the duration I do not know, test only a few hours.
For the outlet pipe of the reactor, it is most often red copper pipe, trade,
the materials tried c, is steel tube with cast iron T
stainless steel tube, flexible neoprene (hydraulic conduit although in the long term it does not reside
in a 100% panton too hot).
It is not so much the material of the outlet duct that affects walking but rather the
section, the length, as well as the elbows, all my ducts are copper, the shortest
possible without direct bend, the duct is covered with a silicone thermal insulating sheath
red. on this duct I weld a thermocouple type K, it is my reference to control the
reactor. After a while of dopade al, water case of the gasoline engine, the copper pipe
becomes black on the inside and gray-green in the connection with the intake manifold,
(probably due to the nature of differrent metals, aluminum and copper, or
departure?)
but it is details without great importance.
The inlet duct into the reactor should not even exist, the reactor should pull
directly into the bubbler, or put the bubbler very close and make a room, or a big
duct that feeds the reactor,
the steam should not undergo this compression or rolling in a too small tube before
to get into the reactor, so as much as possible avoid a long reactor bubbler
As far as the orientation of the reactor is concerned, there are no stories about it
folk. I never took care of that and it works the same
The break-in of the rod is to heat the reactor vigorously so a good load
on the engine and pass little water for the rod to rise in temperature and that the rod
becomes matte on the surface as covered with grayish insulating dirt, it takes a few hours
walk, the better you do not take care of it it will be done alone with the use.
For a full panton mounting a rod made of iron or hard steel this does not change much the
performance, which is important is the game 1mm between the rod and the reactor tube that little
vary according to the materials available from 0,7 to 1,5 max
For petrol engines with 1 mm and less.
for 1mm to 1,5 diesel engines mm.
For a doping with water it is preferable to take a stainless steel rod, at startup often
sends drops of liquid and it ends up corroding the stem, for the body of the reactor
it is less delicate, it rusts harder and remains clean (simple observation), Si
posible take good pipes kind steel drawn it is rounder and more precise.
Precise 1mm annular.
The core in STUB would give good results too, it is deposited a varnish after use
and do not rust as a result.
At first I think it's better to put a fine fence between the reactor outlet and
the intake of the engine in case there remains some welding residues or other ...
So the stub is a very good quality steel containing Chrome, otherwise called
"100 C6" it is used to make ball bearing rings: it's tough!
bubbler
Steel sheets are simpler, more economical, easier to obtain, when the
rust it's true that the water rust pretty fast as the sheet is thick enough
to facilitate the arc welding and bagette for DIYers with average equipment.
If the water is slightly calcareous it is a gray crust on all the internal surface of the
bubbler (mine is all red copper
and I install it at the beginning of winter it is all gray inside
So seeing the thick iron sheet, it will take a few years before the rust
go through,
I think those who have good results with their steel bubbler will make a stainless steel
when it will be eaten away by rust.
It is not worth painting inside, there is nothing to resist hot water
, that's just going to make paints of paints that are going to be eaten by the reactor and the
engine.
For the use of PVC I had already examined the ducts and and all the available material T
plug ect .. at the plumbing store
(I'm talking about black ducts for sewage sticking)
I think that with all that is available we should make a PVC intergral bubbler the
internal chamber and external reheating also. recess with the water
engine and place not too close to the exhaust.
it's economical to build and easy
If you have good connections you can buy the PVC paste that serves to make these pieces it would be
posible to make a mold to make bubblers in series.
There is another possibility it is fiberglass on a polystyrene pattern once the
piece made just empty acetone and the polystyrene dissolves to leave the empty
internal double wall,
It is necessary that these assemblies resit the pressure (like a radiator)
For heat PVC pipes of this diameter 4 inch are relatively thick it
get a little lighter.
But contrary to what Andre says it is rigid gray PVC rigid which is put in the evacuations
inside, there are a lot of accessories, discounts ...... etc ..... and the advantage, if we
instead it's not too close to the exhaust, it's quickly assembled with the special glue.
Black PVC sold in France does not stick, it is semi-rigid and connections are made with
special fittings (my buried watering system is made with that, but I do not believe
not that it suits for the bubbler (in any case it's not what I see in the photos.
Grinding the black pipe is called ABS all the sewer pipes are made with this material
contrary to what you say it's rigid
and that it sticks very well, To make a bubbler with, the only flaw that I found
it's only in the sizes of 4 inch blowjob
the contours require several reduction to make the conections with conduits of
car heater.
The gray pipe sticks with another kind of glue it is thinner, and does not approve
for houses, it is rather reserved for cottages and temporary
drainage on land ect .. it is cheaper to buy ..
This autumn on the Mercedes I made a mounting in ABS and a carburettor with a big
sponge, faster for a temporary construction, without putting glue
edit editing ...
And the rainwater drain pipe is wrong? (gutter)
It resists to strong heat.
To take off the connections, a heat gun is used, the heat of the air
goes up to 400 ° C. Even with water at 90 ° C I do not think it will distort it. And to fix
an 14mm fitting on the plug, for the dip tube for example it is possible to drill and screw.
Be careful, the rigid gray PVC used for sink or sink drain ends up
deform even if the heat does not exceed 80 °. At 100 ° it is the cat. To find out he
just put one end in the boiling water and wait for a while. In my opinion,
this is not suitable for a bubbler.
The rigid black "PVC" in ABS ... don't really know; It is used in networks
water supply? In France where can we buy it in small quantities?
It is the gray PVC used in the evacuations inside the houses in France that we stick
with special PVC glue I was talking about; the assembly that is done on the red tractor
du Morvan (Internet address on previous pages) is very light gray color.
It would be necessary to inquire with the guy who mounted it, how long? In the
Mr brico / casto .... you can buy a meter if you want, the standard is 2 meters.
I want to believe that with the heat it is deformed. in the evacuas it does not flow water
necessarily very hot (90 ° C) but hot water ..yes .... (whatever the dishwasher outlets
and washing machine it must not leave the fresh water at the end of washing cycle) and during
years. My house is built since 20 years and all evacuations are made with this, as
all the houses in France ... it's safe and sure.
I would rather fear the deformation due to the surrounding heat of the engine.
I have falls, I'm going to do tests by diving a piece in boiling water and
with 2 pieces pasted together.
The black plastic called "high pressure" is used for cold and hot water pipes in
buildings, and replaced the nickel-plated metal pipes that ended up rusted. They
support pressure and heat; they are thicker, and heavier; they sell by
12m (?) ... Must recover falls in a bucket, but for tips?
The gray pvc ends up deforming. The downspout of the kitchen sink is all squirmed
and flattens out in the long run ...
For the red tractor I question myself anyway! It will not last long ... Not to be
bored with also bubbler leaks, better be solid and be quiet; there is
enough to deal with the rest ...
In addition, in the photo, the gas supplying the bubbler is a little exhaust, arriving
on the bubbler, in a gray electrical thermoplastic sheath, thin as all, and melting at
the first heat ...
Is it a montage photo? Made by the NSA to misinform
The diameter of the rod is generally between 12 and 14 mm
the length is between 100, and 200mm.
On my Chevrolet Essence 3,8litres the rod makes 12,7mm and 200mmde long
On the 300ld 3td Mercedes 19litres the rod is 150mm the length is XNUMX the first one tries
and the other 105mm the second one tries,
I did not notice any difference between 150mm and 105mm
I am far from convinced that making a multi-reactor is more advantageous than
single-jet as well as a very large reactor is better than a small ..
it's the same dimensions of the reactor that I have on a 125cc engine and on the 3,8 engine liters
The reactor is quite tolerant in its dimensions, it is necessary to take care more the construction of the
bubbler as well as the cunduits that go to the reactor.
It is not the maximum power of the motor which determines, it is rather the use that one makes
of the engine so the heat available in the exhaust, not the volume, but the levels of
temperature, it is more advantageous to have 750c with a small motor that forces 450c with
in large quantities with a motor running at 1 / 4 its power ...
As a reference on the small engine 125cc exhaust gases are getting hotter than
on the 3,8 engine liter with the same reactor!
example: xara 1.9 td: venturi inlet: 69mm ext. 45mm int.
Out of the reactor I stuck 14 / 16 because I had in stock, the stock is exhausted (my
provider is the public dump) I switched to 10 / 12; no loss of performance
sensitive (I do not have a test bench) but a shorter response time I think spend on
my next water doping 8 / 10 see smaller for engines under 1.6L.
The best type of venturi I've seen is the one that's used on old planes for
to walk the giroscopes.
It has the right range to go into an intake duct.
It is double concentric venturi, you can copy the model and make a similar one,
when there are rallies of amateur aircraft builders you find in the pieces a
sell is not expensive, it is not very used it looks like a trumpet.
Another method makes a mold is cast in aluminim that melts easily in a furnace and
is flowing very well a carrot sandblasted al, interior and it's good.
andré
If you use a mower carburetor, the nozzle is too large 12 has 18mm it is necessary to close
the entrance forward and let the air entered through a hole of 3mm which artificially puts the
carburetor in position (chuck) choke.
This does not become a standard carburetor with control rather it is a sprayer that
sends a very rich mixture with little air, so the butterfly no longer serves much, the
control of the air is done by the valve at the output of the reactor.
The control of the fuel is done by the aim of richness of the carburettor.
The maximum water consumption is around 1 / 4 water for the fuel consumed a little
less with gasoline.
Lastly I just tried another method to replace the carburetor,
that is to say a very rustic carburettor: a very simple system of drip
hot water on a mower air filter sponge or other, you have the engine aspirated
in a box that contains the wet sponge you will be impressed by the quality
evaporation of water.
I noticed this last time we spent the vacuum cleaner in the trunk of my car, I had
escaped from the wet straw (for the allowen) and I noticed that the duct of the vacuum cleaner
became cold due to the evaporation of the water in the strands of straws, I remembered
that in my youth I operated engines without a carburetor, just a ball of tow
with drops of gasoline.
So I recap. The reactor is vacuumed through a wet sponge
and we maintain this moisture either directly with a liquid bath or drip, or a
Carburetor that spits water (even badly sprayed it does not bother).
What comes out of the sponge is fine (invisible).
On the 31 diesel this month I can not continue testing, winter storage. Moreover with the
temperature down, consumption has changed and I can not do good tests. On the
gasoline must I start to feed alcohol + water, the nights are fresh
the roofs are white in the mornings.
If you have warmer climates try the sponge thing,
There is another principle is that of the wick that soaks in hot water
and that the reactor sucks through (drying clothes on a rope.)
what I am trying to do is a cold evaporation by increasing the surface in contact as
a lung, or a leaf of a tree.
andré
gasoline engine running on diesel:
a very small carburettor of reduced model or a homemade, simple with a nozzle
from 3 to 4 mm in diameter.
there must be a residual space either a reactor tube long enough a rod of 200 has 250mm.
The room should be 100 see more, before reaching the rod to allow the diesel to get
put in fog before reaching the stem.
We start with gasoline and 2 minutes after transfer to gas oil or fuel. this does not
no difference the engine runs as well, even the consumption is lower at diesel
For continuous water with a bubbler, although it does not add much to the small engine
, a clean candle and a good smell to the exhaust, for the economy makes measurements and
send us your figures, which I compare with my results. If you are running on diesel you can not
do not put too much water otherwise the receiver will cool down too much and the engine will self-ignite.
(because the diesel will not have been transformed into "gas" in the reactor.)
100% pantonne with diesel:
As for the choice of the carburettor, it is preferable to have a wealth screw, this
avoids the problem of sprinklers or level correction when you change fuel.
It is necessary to choose a very small carburettor for the march in fuel oil or diesel, so as to have a
good depression, do not forget the antechamber before the rod, which puts the diesel in condition
for the reactor.
We can mix oil with fuel but not too much 20% 30% it goes well, obviously it
must adjust the aim of wealth because the thickened liquid.
it is advantageous but not obligatory to heat the air before entering the carburettor. Yes
you use a mixture of used fried potato oil with essences the proportion can
be 50 / 50 but before stopping the engine it is better to switch to gasoline for
a few minutes otherwise it will dirty the carburetor holes and must be cleaned
acetone and again ..
The easiest is a reduced model carburetor and it works the first time we do it
siphon in a jar of gasoline.
Once hot, running it is siphoned in a jar of fuel the engine does not stop even. It is desirable to isolate the reactor good improvement.
In diesel there is a slight smell of diesel engine (less than a diesel),
in front of the carburettor we can pull the air through a hot water bubbler it improves
exhaust almost more diesel scent.
simple it takes 2 hours to do one, there is also
the photos of my little engine that runs on fuel.
I also explain that it is a little illogical to take a carburetor of a mobilette or lawn mower
and stop him to breathe through a hole of 3mm.
As well make a carburettor with a nozzle of 3mm.
To give you an idea, currently I made a carburetor with a hole of 5mm (converted
aprox because I'm in inch) and I run a 3,8 engine liters with diesel 90kmh.
so for an 8hp (250cc) a nozzle 3,2 mm is more than enough.
A lot of my problems at the beginning when I wanted to walk with diesel it was the
carburetor layout, do not think of it as a car anymore, but as a firebrand
an oven, I explain myself:
The carburetor if possible must be in line with the reactor.
He must cut in a room adjusted to his jet, too big it makes condensation,
too narrow the drops stick on the walls.
Even heated (especially with diesel fuel), the venturi outlet must be short and lead to a
square way in the room.
The diameter of the reactor tube is suitable for this small jet, the length of the chamber is
100 has 150 mm then it's the stem.
I think I'm repeating myself and if I insist on this point it's because I lost a lot of time
in the stems and others. But it is with this montage that I managed to work well on fuel
red and all kind of heavy fuel.
With experience, walk with gasoline or diesel there are practically no or very
little adjustment to do if you use a carburetor
simple as I describe;
and if you want a kind of emulsion, let a leak on the plastic suction pipe
transparent carburetor small air bubbles replace the emulsion well.
andré
what do you think of the adaptation of an airbrush (small model paint spray gun) which
will be able to fill the role of injector, supply of diesel in place of the
Goblet has paint, and channel a portion of the gas instead of the arrival of the air at the origin.
which will aim to return some of the hot gases, leading, in passing,
fuel to the reactor?
??
hello, the idea is good, make it work and more difficult i will join you
photos of the system: on the way it makes a nice fog.
The problem with a single cylinder is that when the exhaust arrives it makes fog,
then he stops and at this moment it is the aspiration, you have to juggle with the lengths of
pipes to synchronize.
Or make a small delay or a small reserve of fog to properly feed the
engine
I had difficulty varying the engine speed without being forced to adjust
constantly mix.
When I used the small carburetor I put it aside: the engine works
as well and the fit is easy.
that’s when I stuck with wanting to run only on engine oil
look for other solution (ball sprayer from my oven) The goal was to see if the
engine does not ignite with oil).
With a properly heated bubbler it works well, but at the end when you fall into the
molasses, the engine is depleted.
Besides, I observed on my ball burner with engine oil that what burns first
at the bottom of the ball makes a blue flame like propane and further the flame becomes yellow
TRASNPARENTE. So the light product is sprayed first the heavier continues to
spray in this flame.
If I use black banker (boat oil like tar) it also makes a blue flame
flush with the ball, but further on it becomes illuminating white. it becomes difficult to
find that kind of fuel oil for experiments. As far as this asphalt is concerned,
this dirty residue, I prefer not to handle it too much.
for the small carburetor in front of the reactor:
The only air that goes into the reactor is through the carburetor nozzle (currently
a 4mm diameter hole).
The nozzle is a ball point without its ball.
If that doesn't siphon enough, your air nozzle is too big, with this
assembly I can pass an 8 liter an hour with a lower fuel level
than the sprinkler.
It should not be forgotten that under the carburetor (of the car) at low speed it pulls harder
that when the engine goes up in speed (because throttle closed), therefore a little illogical to believe
that we're going to regulate with that.
The way I regulate, I do not control the air intake of the small carburetor
but I put a 1/4 brass needle valve on the finish line of the
fuel oil.
It has to operate at an angle of 90 degrees to go from the minimum
fuel at maximum fuel.
this angle is the stroke of a zipper or a carburetor trigger.
(to put in parallel on the accelerator cable? tryf)
If this does not provide enough flow, take a 3/8 valve
With the 1/4 valve that supplied for 90kmh.
In my case it smokes black when it is too rich so I adjust with the zipper but never
it smoked white.
If it is white it is an indication that the reactor is too cold or rather has been
too cool (probably too much air in the reactor)
If it smokes white suddenly it will self-ignite, it's as if we were doing
consume fuel oil vapor made with a kettle.
It is absolutely essential that the product which passes through the reactor is passed over a dry rod.
and very hot, with little air.
As for the fuel level put a rather flat tank and below the level of the
nozzle.
When you stop the engine there is no flow in the carburetor: it works by
slurping.
The flat tank allows to have a relative (constant) level
The control valve not very far from the carburetor to avoid any inertia. He is not
necessary to heat the oil it also works
although heating it improves it provided you do not heat it with the exhaust because
exceed 150c there are problems with the stability of the liquid in the nozzle.
Go see the photos on the forum PMC evolution on chevrolet
the valve pictures are on it
andré
water doping:
a 150mm long stainless steel rod of 12,7 or 14 mm in a stainless steel tube with a set of 1mm or
slightly more max 1,5mm
the length of the stem: from 100mm to 200mm, 100 mm for a big stem
The most used material is stainless steel, it does not rust, weld well, its defect it
is not good heat conductor, so if possible for the reactor body do not exceed
2mm thick
For the full gasoline or diesel fueling the stem works best when it is placed at the end of the
hot spring and that an antechamber is left before the stem.
For the doping with the water it is the opposite it is necessary to leave an antechamber on the warm side therefore the stem
on the cold end
If you walk with two carburettors it is easier to put them in parralle one for fuel
one for the water if possible the one for the smaller water
It is imperative that it is very small otherwise it does not work
for the rod it must be at least 100mm farther than the reactor to make a
antechamber that improves the fuel oil, on the carburettor it takes a fitting aim
of wealth either on the line if you use that of reduced model leaving a small leak
of air on the line has fuel hose with a T and small aquarium valves this makes a
kind of emulsion it improves the spraying of the oil. The rod you take what you have under
the hand provided that the game is around the most current 1mm here is 1 / 2 inches is
12,7mm I do not believe that the diameter close to these values makes a big difference the
length is less than 200mm if the engine gives off a lot of heat you can go to 100mm.
In order for the panton to receive sufficient heat, it is not necessary to
increase the flow of exhaust gases around the reactor
on the contrary, it is necessary to make an intelligent restriction on the beginning of the reactor, ideally
make it a kind of converging to channel heat compress on the reactor without
while exaggerating, do so with the minimum of restriction.
what you need to know when you relax the exhaust gases they cool, when
compresses the gases it heats up.
In the exhaust system it is at the passage of the valves and in the cylinder head that they are at their
more narrow, In general the reactor is placed in the original conduit, a restriction of 25%
is quite acceptable even desirable for the operation of the reactor.
The restriction in the exhaust duct is felt only when the engine is a
full power (case of short duration on a car)
Do not forget that the exhaust gases when it pass on an operational reactor
lose half and + of their temperature so they are much less bulky on the end
of the reactor.
In my case I push the extreme reduction, is around 50% around the reactor, the
only downside is when I roll over for 5 minutes the engine temperature
increases but not alarmingly ..
For the end toasting or the sponge at the top of the bubbler is effective it blocks all the drops,
it is clearly visible in the outlet tube of the bubbler without the grating after a stop.
frost in the pipe while it is dry with the sponge.
When the reactor does not heat anything: I can not certify it, but to see the color of the
stem it becomes blue fast enough in a motor 100% panton, maybe the reactor heater
nothing but he's eating a hell of a lot of heat to the exhaust gas and he's transferring it into all
what goes into the reactor, now we say more than that it would be extrapolation ..
In your big pipe assembly you took into account the size of the pipes before the reactor and
after the reactor, the section of these ducts must be much greater than the space
between rod and tube, so that the restriction therefore the high speed is done
between the rod and the reactor,
To the reactor operation must speed between rod and tube
the opposite of a heat exchanger.
In my case for an 19 rod I put a pipe of 3 / 4 pipe
copper (which is found to be twice the normally leads to a 12,7mm rod).
a "spad" type assembly for example has an engine rod which is anything but aero-dynamic and which
must generate a lot of turbulence during the passage of humid air in the reactor, and
yet I have the impression that the output is higher than a mounting with a profiled core.
As for the turbulence in the reactor, the rules are quite similar to the one that
l, we meet in the current engine intake manifolds
to know too much turbulence damage to the filling.
not enough turbulence to the mixture.
it's the same with the reactor
not enough turbulence to spray mopsticks
and too much turbulence affecting the speed of passage of the gas as well as friction on the stem and
reactor tube.
So you see we have to juggle these two extremes that are opposed to the smooth running of the
reactor.
As for the electrical insulation of the stem, we talked about the forum .
After a while of walking
(Lapping in plain language) all the rods become covered with an insulating layer, which
rule the problem.
when it comes to insulation, even a welded rod at one end does not change much,
when we talk about insulation it is not the stem, the drops of water rubs on a layer
insulating oxide or deposit (blue color rifle) is a bit like the insulation of the sheets of a
transformer, the oxidation is sufficient and even that they are all welded at a place to
remove the bolts. it does not affect the transformer.
From a thermal point of view, it is advantageous for this to circulate in opposite directions, but if the
reactor is short (100mm rod) the error is diminished, it's a bit as if the source of
heat hit the reactor at 90 degrees, as in the flame of a burner, if the heat is
this will slightly affect performance. Counter-sense has no role on the
internal friction of the drops. If the rod had measured 300 mm it would be more embarrassing.
Copper reactor tube, never tried, it seems to me a tangent with the heat, sutout
on a gasoline engine. Copper rod j, talked about it, the temperature of the rod is not so
high that the copper supports it, but it is the least efficient of the few metals tested.
Brass I have not tried, duraluminium c, is as good as steel and it is rode
easily rapid oxidation, when has the duration I do not know, test only a few hours.
For the outlet pipe of the reactor, it is most often red copper pipe, trade,
the materials tried c, is steel tube with cast iron T
stainless steel tube, flexible neoprene (hydraulic conduit although in the long term it does not reside
in a 100% panton too hot).
It is not so much the material of the outlet duct that affects walking but rather the
section, the length, as well as the elbows, all my ducts are copper, the shortest
possible without direct bend, the duct is covered with a silicone thermal insulating sheath
red. on this duct I weld a thermocouple type K, it is my reference to control the
reactor. After a while of dopade al, water case of the gasoline engine, the copper pipe
becomes black on the inside and gray-green in the connection with the intake manifold,
(probably due to the nature of differrent metals, aluminum and copper, or
departure?)
but it is details without great importance.
The inlet duct into the reactor should not even exist, the reactor should pull
directly into the bubbler, or put the bubbler very close and make a room, or a big
duct that feeds the reactor,
the steam should not undergo this compression or rolling in a too small tube before
to get into the reactor, so as much as possible avoid a long reactor bubbler
As far as the orientation of the reactor is concerned, there are no stories about it
folk. I never took care of that and it works the same
The break-in of the rod is to heat the reactor vigorously so a good load
on the engine and pass little water for the rod to rise in temperature and that the rod
becomes matte on the surface as covered with grayish insulating dirt, it takes a few hours
walk, the better you do not take care of it it will be done alone with the use.
For a full panton mounting a rod made of iron or hard steel this does not change much the
performance, which is important is the game 1mm between the rod and the reactor tube that little
vary according to the materials available from 0,7 to 1,5 max
For petrol engines with 1 mm and less.
for 1mm to 1,5 diesel engines mm.
For a doping with water it is preferable to take a stainless steel rod, at startup often
sends drops of liquid and it ends up corroding the stem, for the body of the reactor
it is less delicate, it rusts harder and remains clean (simple observation), Si
posible take good pipes kind steel drawn it is rounder and more precise.
Precise 1mm annular.
The core in STUB would give good results too, it is deposited a varnish after use
and do not rust as a result.
At first I think it's better to put a fine fence between the reactor outlet and
the intake of the engine in case there remains some welding residues or other ...
So the stub is a very good quality steel containing Chrome, otherwise called
"100 C6" it is used to make ball bearing rings: it's tough!
bubbler
Steel sheets are simpler, more economical, easier to obtain, when the
rust it's true that the water rust pretty fast as the sheet is thick enough
to facilitate the arc welding and bagette for DIYers with average equipment.
If the water is slightly calcareous it is a gray crust on all the internal surface of the
bubbler (mine is all red copper
and I install it at the beginning of winter it is all gray inside
So seeing the thick iron sheet, it will take a few years before the rust
go through,
I think those who have good results with their steel bubbler will make a stainless steel
when it will be eaten away by rust.
It is not worth painting inside, there is nothing to resist hot water
, that's just going to make paints of paints that are going to be eaten by the reactor and the
engine.
For the use of PVC I had already examined the ducts and and all the available material T
plug ect .. at the plumbing store
(I'm talking about black ducts for sewage sticking)
I think that with all that is available we should make a PVC intergral bubbler the
internal chamber and external reheating also. recess with the water
engine and place not too close to the exhaust.
it's economical to build and easy
If you have good connections you can buy the PVC paste that serves to make these pieces it would be
posible to make a mold to make bubblers in series.
There is another possibility it is fiberglass on a polystyrene pattern once the
piece made just empty acetone and the polystyrene dissolves to leave the empty
internal double wall,
It is necessary that these assemblies resit the pressure (like a radiator)
For heat PVC pipes of this diameter 4 inch are relatively thick it
get a little lighter.
But contrary to what Andre says it is rigid gray PVC rigid which is put in the evacuations
inside, there are a lot of accessories, discounts ...... etc ..... and the advantage, if we
instead it's not too close to the exhaust, it's quickly assembled with the special glue.
Black PVC sold in France does not stick, it is semi-rigid and connections are made with
special fittings (my buried watering system is made with that, but I do not believe
not that it suits for the bubbler (in any case it's not what I see in the photos.
Grinding the black pipe is called ABS all the sewer pipes are made with this material
contrary to what you say it's rigid
and that it sticks very well, To make a bubbler with, the only flaw that I found
it's only in the sizes of 4 inch blowjob
the contours require several reduction to make the conections with conduits of
car heater.
The gray pipe sticks with another kind of glue it is thinner, and does not approve
for houses, it is rather reserved for cottages and temporary
drainage on land ect .. it is cheaper to buy ..
This autumn on the Mercedes I made a mounting in ABS and a carburettor with a big
sponge, faster for a temporary construction, without putting glue
edit editing ...
And the rainwater drain pipe is wrong? (gutter)
It resists to strong heat.
To take off the connections, a heat gun is used, the heat of the air
goes up to 400 ° C. Even with water at 90 ° C I do not think it will distort it. And to fix
an 14mm fitting on the plug, for the dip tube for example it is possible to drill and screw.
Be careful, the rigid gray PVC used for sink or sink drain ends up
deform even if the heat does not exceed 80 °. At 100 ° it is the cat. To find out he
just put one end in the boiling water and wait for a while. In my opinion,
this is not suitable for a bubbler.
The rigid black "PVC" in ABS ... don't really know; It is used in networks
water supply? In France where can we buy it in small quantities?
It is the gray PVC used in the evacuations inside the houses in France that we stick
with special PVC glue I was talking about; the assembly that is done on the red tractor
du Morvan (Internet address on previous pages) is very light gray color.
It would be necessary to inquire with the guy who mounted it, how long? In the
Mr brico / casto .... you can buy a meter if you want, the standard is 2 meters.
I want to believe that with the heat it is deformed. in the evacuas it does not flow water
necessarily very hot (90 ° C) but hot water ..yes .... (whatever the dishwasher outlets
and washing machine it must not leave the fresh water at the end of washing cycle) and during
years. My house is built since 20 years and all evacuations are made with this, as
all the houses in France ... it's safe and sure.
I would rather fear the deformation due to the surrounding heat of the engine.
I have falls, I'm going to do tests by diving a piece in boiling water and
with 2 pieces pasted together.
The black plastic called "high pressure" is used for cold and hot water pipes in
buildings, and replaced the nickel-plated metal pipes that ended up rusted. They
support pressure and heat; they are thicker, and heavier; they sell by
12m (?) ... Must recover falls in a bucket, but for tips?
The gray pvc ends up deforming. The downspout of the kitchen sink is all squirmed
and flattens out in the long run ...
For the red tractor I question myself anyway! It will not last long ... Not to be
bored with also bubbler leaks, better be solid and be quiet; there is
enough to deal with the rest ...
In addition, in the photo, the gas supplying the bubbler is a little exhaust, arriving
on the bubbler, in a gray electrical thermoplastic sheath, thin as all, and melting at
the first heat ...
Is it a montage photo? Made by the NSA to misinform
The diameter of the rod is generally between 12 and 14 mm
the length is between 100, and 200mm.
On my Chevrolet Essence 3,8litres the rod makes 12,7mm and 200mmde long
On the 300ld 3td Mercedes 19litres the rod is 150mm the length is XNUMX the first one tries
and the other 105mm the second one tries,
I did not notice any difference between 150mm and 105mm
I am far from convinced that making a multi-reactor is more advantageous than
single-jet as well as a very large reactor is better than a small ..
it's the same dimensions of the reactor that I have on a 125cc engine and on the 3,8 engine liters
The reactor is quite tolerant in its dimensions, it is necessary to take care more the construction of the
bubbler as well as the cunduits that go to the reactor.
It is not the maximum power of the motor which determines, it is rather the use that one makes
of the engine so the heat available in the exhaust, not the volume, but the levels of
temperature, it is more advantageous to have 750c with a small motor that forces 450c with
in large quantities with a motor running at 1 / 4 its power ...
As a reference on the small engine 125cc exhaust gases are getting hotter than
on the 3,8 engine liter with the same reactor!
example: xara 1.9 td: venturi inlet: 69mm ext. 45mm int.
Out of the reactor I stuck 14 / 16 because I had in stock, the stock is exhausted (my
provider is the public dump) I switched to 10 / 12; no loss of performance
sensitive (I do not have a test bench) but a shorter response time I think spend on
my next water doping 8 / 10 see smaller for engines under 1.6L.
The best type of venturi I've seen is the one that's used on old planes for
to walk the giroscopes.
It has the right range to go into an intake duct.
It is double concentric venturi, you can copy the model and make a similar one,
when there are rallies of amateur aircraft builders you find in the pieces a
sell is not expensive, it is not very used it looks like a trumpet.
Another method makes a mold is cast in aluminim that melts easily in a furnace and
is flowing very well a carrot sandblasted al, interior and it's good.
andré
If you use a mower carburetor, the nozzle is too large 12 has 18mm it is necessary to close
the entrance forward and let the air entered through a hole of 3mm which artificially puts the
carburetor in position (chuck) choke.
This does not become a standard carburetor with control rather it is a sprayer that
sends a very rich mixture with little air, so the butterfly no longer serves much, the
control of the air is done by the valve at the output of the reactor.
The control of the fuel is done by the aim of richness of the carburettor.
The maximum water consumption is around 1 / 4 water for the fuel consumed a little
less with gasoline.
Lastly I just tried another method to replace the carburetor,
that is to say a very rustic carburettor: a very simple system of drip
hot water on a mower air filter sponge or other, you have the engine aspirated
in a box that contains the wet sponge you will be impressed by the quality
evaporation of water.
I noticed this last time we spent the vacuum cleaner in the trunk of my car, I had
escaped from the wet straw (for the allowen) and I noticed that the duct of the vacuum cleaner
became cold due to the evaporation of the water in the strands of straws, I remembered
that in my youth I operated engines without a carburetor, just a ball of tow
with drops of gasoline.
So I recap. The reactor is vacuumed through a wet sponge
and we maintain this moisture either directly with a liquid bath or drip, or a
Carburetor that spits water (even badly sprayed it does not bother).
What comes out of the sponge is fine (invisible).
On the 31 diesel this month I can not continue testing, winter storage. Moreover with the
temperature down, consumption has changed and I can not do good tests. On the
gasoline must I start to feed alcohol + water, the nights are fresh
the roofs are white in the mornings.
If you have warmer climates try the sponge thing,
There is another principle is that of the wick that soaks in hot water
and that the reactor sucks through (drying clothes on a rope.)
what I am trying to do is a cold evaporation by increasing the surface in contact as
a lung, or a leaf of a tree.
andré
gasoline engine running on diesel:
a very small carburettor of reduced model or a homemade, simple with a nozzle
from 3 to 4 mm in diameter.
there must be a residual space either a reactor tube long enough a rod of 200 has 250mm.
The room should be 100 see more, before reaching the rod to allow the diesel to get
put in fog before reaching the stem.
We start with gasoline and 2 minutes after transfer to gas oil or fuel. this does not
no difference the engine runs as well, even the consumption is lower at diesel
For continuous water with a bubbler, although it does not add much to the small engine
, a clean candle and a good smell to the exhaust, for the economy makes measurements and
send us your figures, which I compare with my results. If you are running on diesel you can not
do not put too much water otherwise the receiver will cool down too much and the engine will self-ignite.
(because the diesel will not have been transformed into "gas" in the reactor.)
100% pantonne with diesel:
As for the choice of the carburettor, it is preferable to have a wealth screw, this
avoids the problem of sprinklers or level correction when you change fuel.
It is necessary to choose a very small carburettor for the march in fuel oil or diesel, so as to have a
good depression, do not forget the antechamber before the rod, which puts the diesel in condition
for the reactor.
We can mix oil with fuel but not too much 20% 30% it goes well, obviously it
must adjust the aim of wealth because the thickened liquid.
it is advantageous but not obligatory to heat the air before entering the carburettor. Yes
you use a mixture of used fried potato oil with essences the proportion can
be 50 / 50 but before stopping the engine it is better to switch to gasoline for
a few minutes otherwise it will dirty the carburetor holes and must be cleaned
acetone and again ..
The easiest is a reduced model carburetor and it works the first time we do it
siphon in a jar of gasoline.
Once hot, running it is siphoned in a jar of fuel the engine does not stop even. It is desirable to isolate the reactor good improvement.
In diesel there is a slight smell of diesel engine (less than a diesel),
in front of the carburettor we can pull the air through a hot water bubbler it improves
exhaust almost more diesel scent.
simple it takes 2 hours to do one, there is also
the photos of my little engine that runs on fuel.
I also explain that it is a little illogical to take a carburetor of a mobilette or lawn mower
and stop him to breathe through a hole of 3mm.
As well make a carburettor with a nozzle of 3mm.
To give you an idea, currently I made a carburetor with a hole of 5mm (converted
aprox because I'm in inch) and I run a 3,8 engine liters with diesel 90kmh.
so for an 8hp (250cc) a nozzle 3,2 mm is more than enough.
A lot of my problems at the beginning when I wanted to walk with diesel it was the
carburetor layout, do not think of it as a car anymore, but as a firebrand
an oven, I explain myself:
The carburetor if possible must be in line with the reactor.
He must cut in a room adjusted to his jet, too big it makes condensation,
too narrow the drops stick on the walls.
Even heated (especially with diesel fuel), the venturi outlet must be short and lead to a
square way in the room.
The diameter of the reactor tube is suitable for this small jet, the length of the chamber is
100 has 150 mm then it's the stem.
I think I'm repeating myself and if I insist on this point it's because I lost a lot of time
in the stems and others. But it is with this montage that I managed to work well on fuel
red and all kind of heavy fuel.
With experience, walk with gasoline or diesel there are practically no or very
little adjustment to do if you use a carburetor
simple as I describe;
and if you want a kind of emulsion, let a leak on the plastic suction pipe
transparent carburetor small air bubbles replace the emulsion well.
andré
what do you think of the adaptation of an airbrush (small model paint spray gun) which
will be able to fill the role of injector, supply of diesel in place of the
Goblet has paint, and channel a portion of the gas instead of the arrival of the air at the origin.
which will aim to return some of the hot gases, leading, in passing,
fuel to the reactor?
??
hello, the idea is good, make it work and more difficult i will join you
photos of the system: on the way it makes a nice fog.
The problem with a single cylinder is that when the exhaust arrives it makes fog,
then he stops and at this moment it is the aspiration, you have to juggle with the lengths of
pipes to synchronize.
Or make a small delay or a small reserve of fog to properly feed the
engine
I had difficulty varying the engine speed without being forced to adjust
constantly mix.
When I used the small carburetor I put it aside: the engine works
as well and the fit is easy.
that’s when I stuck with wanting to run only on engine oil
look for other solution (ball sprayer from my oven) The goal was to see if the
engine does not ignite with oil).
With a properly heated bubbler it works well, but at the end when you fall into the
molasses, the engine is depleted.
Besides, I observed on my ball burner with engine oil that what burns first
at the bottom of the ball makes a blue flame like propane and further the flame becomes yellow
TRASNPARENTE. So the light product is sprayed first the heavier continues to
spray in this flame.
If I use black banker (boat oil like tar) it also makes a blue flame
flush with the ball, but further on it becomes illuminating white. it becomes difficult to
find that kind of fuel oil for experiments. As far as this asphalt is concerned,
this dirty residue, I prefer not to handle it too much.
for the small carburetor in front of the reactor:
The only air that goes into the reactor is through the carburetor nozzle (currently
a 4mm diameter hole).
The nozzle is a ball point without its ball.
If that doesn't siphon enough, your air nozzle is too big, with this
assembly I can pass an 8 liter an hour with a lower fuel level
than the sprinkler.
It should not be forgotten that under the carburetor (of the car) at low speed it pulls harder
that when the engine goes up in speed (because throttle closed), therefore a little illogical to believe
that we're going to regulate with that.
The way I regulate, I do not control the air intake of the small carburetor
but I put a 1/4 brass needle valve on the finish line of the
fuel oil.
It has to operate at an angle of 90 degrees to go from the minimum
fuel at maximum fuel.
this angle is the stroke of a zipper or a carburetor trigger.
(to put in parallel on the accelerator cable? tryf)
If this does not provide enough flow, take a 3/8 valve
With the 1/4 valve that supplied for 90kmh.
In my case it smokes black when it is too rich so I adjust with the zipper but never
it smoked white.
If it is white it is an indication that the reactor is too cold or rather has been
too cool (probably too much air in the reactor)
If it smokes white suddenly it will self-ignite, it's as if we were doing
consume fuel oil vapor made with a kettle.
It is absolutely essential that the product which passes through the reactor is passed over a dry rod.
and very hot, with little air.
As for the fuel level put a rather flat tank and below the level of the
nozzle.
When you stop the engine there is no flow in the carburetor: it works by
slurping.
The flat tank allows to have a relative (constant) level
The control valve not very far from the carburetor to avoid any inertia. He is not
necessary to heat the oil it also works
although heating it improves it provided you do not heat it with the exhaust because
exceed 150c there are problems with the stability of the liquid in the nozzle.
Go see the photos on the forum PMC evolution on chevrolet
the valve pictures are on it
andré
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 36, 1 edited once.
0 x
hypotheses:
The term vapor may indicate 2 different realities:
- vapor visible as white smoke (for example, clouds), formed of tiny
liquid water droplets suspended in the air.
- water vapor in gaseous state, having all the properties of a gas, and completely
invisible.
Pantone needs water in the gaseous state (no gaseous water, hihi) and not in the liquid state.
If the bubbler water begins to boil, steam in the form of droplets arrives
at Pantone. He does not like.
The transformation of the droplets into gas can be done in the reactor,
but will consume so much heat that the reactor becomes inoperative. Avoid it.
It may be advantageous to place the reactor higher than the bubbler, so that the
any water droplets may condense in the pipe and return to the bubbler instead
to reach the reactor.
I do not see very well why by putting the reactor higher we will avoid the drops of water.
Gravity will work for big drops, maybe, but as the motor creates a
depression in the piping, anyway, everything is sucked. The bubbler is hermetic on
motor creates the vacuum above the water, the steam is sucked in and a part condenses on the
walls of the bubbler.
Now what happens with 180c steam that goes into a diesel engine when
very high compression.
normally this water vapor should condense
Principle of the system of rerigeration, to then evaporate at the time of the explosion.
Now to vaporize the water in the reactor there is a time factor, even an explosion in
an engine it takes a while
this vapor enters the cylinder in depression, at the time of compression 80 bars, a little
before injection at the end of the piston stroke (normally this vapor should condense if the
pressure is high enough and the temperature does not exceed the saturation limit for the
given pressure, and it is only at this point, during the condensation cycle that there is
restitution of the energy which was taken in the exhaust gases.
Then injection this water vaporizes that reaches the brutality of the diesel and that gives a
spreading of the pressure on the piston in the trigger.
But what about a low compression internal combustion engine (petrol), we arrive at the same
result in water doping, in this case the temperature of injected vapor is even higher
(I do tests on two vehicles gasoline is diesel and I compare)
Another more disturbing fact instead of doping with water I tested doping 30% water and alcohol
normally I should have had a marked improvement since alcohol is combustible, this
is only slightly better compared to water,
On my Chevrolet petrol, next week I will test doping only with pure alcohol
, obviously I'm going to adjust the richness accordingly of the petrol injectors and I have to
take into account the consumption of alcohol, if it works as a refrigeration system it is necessary
taking into account temperatures and pressures depending on the fluids used.
What leads me to believe that it worked according to this principle is that I had noticed that
the colder the exhaust after the reactor the better the efficiency.
In reality there is something else that intervenes in the combustion chamber at the end of
compression and during combustion.
What also intrigues me is why the Lambda probe detects oxygen in the exhaust,
and if it's true where does this oxygen come from? why it was not fully used for
combustion (case of the petrol engine) and if the oxygen comes from the water, that means a
certain part of water is broken down? where is the hydrogen going? you will tell me burned, but
why didn't she consume her oxygen?
Another remark the consumption of water
The engine that I have is between 1 2 liters consume more yield drop.
Contrary to what many people think, do not send hot steam into the
reactor, not only does the rendering go down but the reactor does not work any more.
(big drops right?)
If that were the case we would make a good tubular exchanger to make steam and go into the
intake pipe, easy to do with an electric kettle on a small engine
stationary, result more than negative.
Diesel vaporization: 130 °?
With regard to the temperature of the steam leaving the reactor
I don't think this should have a big influence on the final temperature at the end of
compression:
if we consider the amount of air and vapor that passes between a 14mm rod and the reactor
or the size of a 12mm diameter pipe at most depending on the rod and the clearance
The amount of air a diesel engine can swallow (even worse with a turbo) must be
less than 10% so even if this steam + air is at 200c dilute in the air mass of the engine this
does not have to raise the temperature a lot (some will be able to calculate it for us)
So the water vapor in the air has another role in the engine.
To have done a lot of work in heat pump systems and different exchangers, I can
to say that I have not yet seen an exchanger, capable in such a short distance, the length of the
reactor is 30cm, that all the exhaust gases, therefore a volume of 200kg of gas al, hour which
circulates in the exhaust pipe lose as much heat.
These gases measured at the reactor inlet make 600c at 130kmh
pass the 30cm of the reactor they are less than 300c so they have give up half their temperature
, and these figures get better if the gas goes up to 700c, the more the engine forces the more the differrence
is tall.
it is relatively simple to weld 2 thermocouples on each side
of the reactor, and makes the observation.
For your question of measurement of vapor temperature, the measurement and taken on the copper pipe
(thermocouple solder with silver on the pipe halfway between the reactor and the manifold, the
all insulated to have more precision, normally with this way of measuring (on the pipe) the
internal temperature should be higher than indicated.
qu: is there a thermal insulator on the ech tubing, between the after reactor and the
thermocouple? (who could distort the measurement?)
The Pantone provides 2 elements to the engine:
_Vapor at very high temperature
air at this very high temperature.
I think that, contrary to what is usually said on the internet, you should not put
these 2 elements in the same basket (although they are mixed at the exit of the Pantone).
The function of the steam has for me an anti detonating role (from where a functioning of the engine more
quiet). But do not put too much on it because otherwise it harms good combustion (hence
the need to properly dose its water intake).
The hot air has another role: as this air is hot, so it allows better reactions
faster during combustion (hence reduction of pollution). But it doesn't have to be
too hot because otherwise there is a risk of overheating the engine and a drop in performance (for you
give a glaring example of the importance of engine cooling, take a moped,
heat it up, watch its top speed, then throw a bucket of cold water on the
engine and look again at top speed: it can gain up to 10km / h).
Why is the system performing better on diesels? Because the temperature of "fresh" gases
now high thanks to Pantone allows better combustion: the "bad" injection of
old diesels therefore no longer poses problems of complete combustion (no more black smoke) and
we obtain the performances (or even better) of modern diesels with high pressure injection.
Combustion being of better origin on petrol engines than on diesels, the gains
are not significant compared to diesel.
Why can a diesel absorb more water? Because it is self-igniting, the
combustion of diesel is done at thousands of points at the same time and combustion is not
not disturbed. On a gasoline the lighting is done at the level of the candle: there can be bad
ignition due to the steam and therefore engine failures (that's what is happening, there
has failures, right?)
By falling on the page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eau, I see that it says that the
thermolysis becomes significant around 750 ° c.
In a well-made pantone assembly, on a petrol engine, we are likely to achieve this
temperature right?
If yes, that would mean that at the outlet of the reactor, we could really have a little
Hydrogen!
In addition, we know that with a lower pressure, the water boils at a lower temperature.
Could it not be the same for the thermolysis temperature, since the reactor is in
depression?
These hypotheses are fully valid and I think we could still lower this value with
catalysts (stainless steel, chrome ...) on the other hand the experience of lavoisier is not valid in
our case (far too much iron consumption compared to the energy drawn from water ...)
For the pressure you are also right, I had curves under the eyes concerning the
hydrogen cracking. But you really have to go down in pressure (from 1/100 to 1/1000 atm)
for the cracked / non-cracked proportion to be really increased ...
is quite far with the suction of a motor (1/10 atm).
What surprises me is that cracking when refining oil is always (to my
knowledge) done under pressure (a few dozen atmospheres) ... Is it for better
control the process? I think so (if not too fast cracking and molecules can be
too small so carbonated ...)
but we don't necessarily need a pump to have a vacuum, with a T venturi we can have
a very suitable vacuum by passing water inside, to meditate c interesting
I can't exceed 30% savings, this will correspond to the maximum of the losses we
can recover from the exhaust, obviously if we could go and find it in the circuit
antifreeze cooling (in modern engines these losses are higher than in
the exhaust .. (theoretically if we could recover all the energy from the exhaust we
could save 50% to 60% on fuel
There is also something else happening at the time of combustion
the engine oil stays cleaner (I drove 8200km with water doping without adding
oil and it was surprisingly clean)
Now talking about hydrogen, we should take measurements
On the other hand I know that the Lambda probe detects a high level of oxygen in the exhaust (but
this measure does not necessarily mean that there is oxygen in the exhaust) and if
where does this oxygen come from? and if it comes from water it means that it must also
have a decomposition somewhere ..
Another amazing fact I replaced the bubbler water with pure alcohol
I did not see a much higher yield than water doping (this is an observation
preliminary done in cold weather -10c)
so I have to repeat this experience in good summer conditions.
By adding water to the intake of an engine, in the visible vapor state (in the form of micro-
droplets), preferably warm (so that once in the cylinders, it does not absorb
unnecessarily).
During the compression phase, this water absorbs part of the energy from heating
gases (since there is compression), while remaining in the vapor state since the pressure increases.
This pressure increases, but less than if there was no water, since as I described
the water absorbs part of the rise in temperature, therefore in pressure, thereby reducing the
antagonistic thrust to the piston (braking it less to use a simpler expression).
Arriving at a certain stage, near neutral, the temperature (can be helped by the start of
combustion of hydrocarbons) becomes such that the state of the water necessarily goes into phase
gas, thereby significantly increasing the pressure in the cylinders, and restoring, during the
relaxation, part of the energy previously acquired, just when it is interesting
push the pistons, since this is the driving phase, that of combustion, where the
piston goes back down.
Thus the water would play the role of pressure retarder, facilitating the rise of the pistons, then
helping the pistons during their descent. This would have the effect of optimizing the yield.
Now what happens with pantonized steam, at 180c which goes into a diesel engine at
time of very high compression:
normally this water vapor should condense
Principle of the system of rerigeration, to then evaporate at the time of the explosion.
plasmatron:
With 7% of hydrogen-rich gas supplied to the engine, NOx and CO are lowered. However,
if the concentration of hydrogenated gas is too high (more than 20%) compared to the whole of the
mass of fuel, it hinders the oxidation of hydrocarbons, which increases releases.
this would explain that too much water consumption increases consumption and rejections.
Too much water may also be: Reactor malfunction
a large part of this water would not undergo any reaction and would enter as is into the
engine.
ps: in my opinion it is not necessary to drive the reactor with a carburetor.
nor heat the bubbler too much (40 ° in my opinion is the best).
or you have to put a filter or a sponge at the outlet of the bubbler.
Why?
because the drops of water are bigger with carburetor or overheating.
they slip without anything in the reactor.
of course without much heating, the sucked air contains - water.
so you may also need to plug a little + the air filter.
but this must be largely compensated by a better use of the reactor.
something else
have some tried to strongly reduce (see delete) the injection advance
and increase the injection pressure
to reduce the injection time and therefore the combustion time?
(read p 17 david to understand)
reply to andre:
it is practically certain of the presence of hydrogen because the pressure conditions and
temperatures at the time of combustion are suitable.
(even if at the outlet of the reactor it is only dry steam and can be ionized or I do not
not know what)
in action auto moto (magazine that dismantles the pants in a way that is not at all objective)
there is an interesting info anyway:
the water molecule cracks under 1000 ° at several hundred bars
and under 4000 ° at 1,5 bars.
at the time of combustion the temperature reaches well 2000 ° see + no?
the pressure must be at least 20 bars in diesel? (80 apparently)
11 or 12 in essence? (probably +)
figures to verify
When the super explosion, I don't believe it at all
All water-doped engines, especially diesels, as well as gasoline engines with high
compression, they become silent we no longer hear this sudden ignition
Rather, I think spreading the pressure greatly improves efficiency.
In general, all engines with a large lead are engines of (poor) design
if we put a lot ahead it is because the combustion is not fast enough.
Remain on automotive diesel, which is a special case a semi-diesel, as opposed to
boat diesel (real diesel)
the injection should be made when the volume of compressed air is the smallest and the most
hot, but for reasons of expansion of the injector pipes, rotation speed and
duration of the ignition of the diesel one is forced to have advance,
unlike real diesel, in a semi-diesel we inject all the diesel in a very short time
short, the problem it creates:
the first drops injected instantly boil, the other drops that follow arrive
in a flame and in a lack of air (despite the large amount of air which is far from
the injector)
we have not yet reached the top dead center, but very close, these drops vaporizes with the
heat and with turbulence meets the air, as the piston is stopped it is in its position
of rocker for the descent this mass combustion gives a shock, therefore a brutal pressure
in a reduced room, piston stopped it is the noise of diesel, this shock is a loss of
performance,
this poor combustion generates soot and unburnt
In a real slow diesel this combustion is spread out during the descent of the piston.
With water doping combustion becomes more spread out, we get closer to real diesel ...
In an engine we speak of an explosion, but we should rather speak of a flame front, which
is not comparable to a detonation
A detonation is a very rapid combustion of the whole mass, it applies to explosives
and again, the faster the detonation speed the more the explosive will break, (this is another
story about combustion which does not interest us for our pants).
take the spreading hypothesis:
at the top dead center, the burning hydrocarbon molecules causes pressure
huge compared to the smallness of the cylinder chamber at this time.
molecules that burn when the piston is already lowered are effective.
(because the detante is in a larger room).
moreover if the high compression motors have better efficiency it is good for some
thing.
more heat-pressure has + time to lower the piston when it acts the + tot (point
dead high).
according to david the moment when the engine has its real efficiency = theoretically is the neutral moment
high.
in terms of diesel noise:
maybe this is it? (not the click = auto-ignition) which causes it:
pressures on the sides of the pistons,
instead of an identical explosion at all points (which only attaches to push the piston
down rather than banging it from left to right)
here are the tests that I intend to do:
acceleration at the bottom of 1st and 2nd without and with pants.
speed measurements.
ditto with pantonne.
and also ditto with stop at the half of the acceleration stroke.
because what surprises me is that the consumption sometimes decreases by 30%, and the power increases by 10%
only.
in my opinion the panton works mainly in the acceleration range from 1/3 to 1/2 of the pedal.
for the tests you plan to do why not. Personally the difference between with and
without reactor in my case is almost undetectable. Chrono level I don't know.
Regarding the water flow. It seems that it takes only one liter per 100km on average.
I use a small aquarium type tap. Put it in the car and make the settings in
rolling. If there is too much water your engine forces to accelerate. But this is in case you
uses a homemade water carburetor.
pitmix
The term vapor may indicate 2 different realities:
- vapor visible as white smoke (for example, clouds), formed of tiny
liquid water droplets suspended in the air.
- water vapor in gaseous state, having all the properties of a gas, and completely
invisible.
Pantone needs water in the gaseous state (no gaseous water, hihi) and not in the liquid state.
If the bubbler water begins to boil, steam in the form of droplets arrives
at Pantone. He does not like.
The transformation of the droplets into gas can be done in the reactor,
but will consume so much heat that the reactor becomes inoperative. Avoid it.
It may be advantageous to place the reactor higher than the bubbler, so that the
any water droplets may condense in the pipe and return to the bubbler instead
to reach the reactor.
I do not see very well why by putting the reactor higher we will avoid the drops of water.
Gravity will work for big drops, maybe, but as the motor creates a
depression in the piping, anyway, everything is sucked. The bubbler is hermetic on
motor creates the vacuum above the water, the steam is sucked in and a part condenses on the
walls of the bubbler.
Now what happens with 180c steam that goes into a diesel engine when
very high compression.
normally this water vapor should condense
Principle of the system of rerigeration, to then evaporate at the time of the explosion.
Now to vaporize the water in the reactor there is a time factor, even an explosion in
an engine it takes a while
this vapor enters the cylinder in depression, at the time of compression 80 bars, a little
before injection at the end of the piston stroke (normally this vapor should condense if the
pressure is high enough and the temperature does not exceed the saturation limit for the
given pressure, and it is only at this point, during the condensation cycle that there is
restitution of the energy which was taken in the exhaust gases.
Then injection this water vaporizes that reaches the brutality of the diesel and that gives a
spreading of the pressure on the piston in the trigger.
But what about a low compression internal combustion engine (petrol), we arrive at the same
result in water doping, in this case the temperature of injected vapor is even higher
(I do tests on two vehicles gasoline is diesel and I compare)
Another more disturbing fact instead of doping with water I tested doping 30% water and alcohol
normally I should have had a marked improvement since alcohol is combustible, this
is only slightly better compared to water,
On my Chevrolet petrol, next week I will test doping only with pure alcohol
, obviously I'm going to adjust the richness accordingly of the petrol injectors and I have to
take into account the consumption of alcohol, if it works as a refrigeration system it is necessary
taking into account temperatures and pressures depending on the fluids used.
What leads me to believe that it worked according to this principle is that I had noticed that
the colder the exhaust after the reactor the better the efficiency.
In reality there is something else that intervenes in the combustion chamber at the end of
compression and during combustion.
What also intrigues me is why the Lambda probe detects oxygen in the exhaust,
and if it's true where does this oxygen come from? why it was not fully used for
combustion (case of the petrol engine) and if the oxygen comes from the water, that means a
certain part of water is broken down? where is the hydrogen going? you will tell me burned, but
why didn't she consume her oxygen?
Another remark the consumption of water
The engine that I have is between 1 2 liters consume more yield drop.
Contrary to what many people think, do not send hot steam into the
reactor, not only does the rendering go down but the reactor does not work any more.
(big drops right?)
If that were the case we would make a good tubular exchanger to make steam and go into the
intake pipe, easy to do with an electric kettle on a small engine
stationary, result more than negative.
Diesel vaporization: 130 °?
With regard to the temperature of the steam leaving the reactor
I don't think this should have a big influence on the final temperature at the end of
compression:
if we consider the amount of air and vapor that passes between a 14mm rod and the reactor
or the size of a 12mm diameter pipe at most depending on the rod and the clearance
The amount of air a diesel engine can swallow (even worse with a turbo) must be
less than 10% so even if this steam + air is at 200c dilute in the air mass of the engine this
does not have to raise the temperature a lot (some will be able to calculate it for us)
So the water vapor in the air has another role in the engine.
To have done a lot of work in heat pump systems and different exchangers, I can
to say that I have not yet seen an exchanger, capable in such a short distance, the length of the
reactor is 30cm, that all the exhaust gases, therefore a volume of 200kg of gas al, hour which
circulates in the exhaust pipe lose as much heat.
These gases measured at the reactor inlet make 600c at 130kmh
pass the 30cm of the reactor they are less than 300c so they have give up half their temperature
, and these figures get better if the gas goes up to 700c, the more the engine forces the more the differrence
is tall.
it is relatively simple to weld 2 thermocouples on each side
of the reactor, and makes the observation.
For your question of measurement of vapor temperature, the measurement and taken on the copper pipe
(thermocouple solder with silver on the pipe halfway between the reactor and the manifold, the
all insulated to have more precision, normally with this way of measuring (on the pipe) the
internal temperature should be higher than indicated.
qu: is there a thermal insulator on the ech tubing, between the after reactor and the
thermocouple? (who could distort the measurement?)
The Pantone provides 2 elements to the engine:
_Vapor at very high temperature
air at this very high temperature.
I think that, contrary to what is usually said on the internet, you should not put
these 2 elements in the same basket (although they are mixed at the exit of the Pantone).
The function of the steam has for me an anti detonating role (from where a functioning of the engine more
quiet). But do not put too much on it because otherwise it harms good combustion (hence
the need to properly dose its water intake).
The hot air has another role: as this air is hot, so it allows better reactions
faster during combustion (hence reduction of pollution). But it doesn't have to be
too hot because otherwise there is a risk of overheating the engine and a drop in performance (for you
give a glaring example of the importance of engine cooling, take a moped,
heat it up, watch its top speed, then throw a bucket of cold water on the
engine and look again at top speed: it can gain up to 10km / h).
Why is the system performing better on diesels? Because the temperature of "fresh" gases
now high thanks to Pantone allows better combustion: the "bad" injection of
old diesels therefore no longer poses problems of complete combustion (no more black smoke) and
we obtain the performances (or even better) of modern diesels with high pressure injection.
Combustion being of better origin on petrol engines than on diesels, the gains
are not significant compared to diesel.
Why can a diesel absorb more water? Because it is self-igniting, the
combustion of diesel is done at thousands of points at the same time and combustion is not
not disturbed. On a gasoline the lighting is done at the level of the candle: there can be bad
ignition due to the steam and therefore engine failures (that's what is happening, there
has failures, right?)
By falling on the page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eau, I see that it says that the
thermolysis becomes significant around 750 ° c.
In a well-made pantone assembly, on a petrol engine, we are likely to achieve this
temperature right?
If yes, that would mean that at the outlet of the reactor, we could really have a little
Hydrogen!
In addition, we know that with a lower pressure, the water boils at a lower temperature.
Could it not be the same for the thermolysis temperature, since the reactor is in
depression?
These hypotheses are fully valid and I think we could still lower this value with
catalysts (stainless steel, chrome ...) on the other hand the experience of lavoisier is not valid in
our case (far too much iron consumption compared to the energy drawn from water ...)
For the pressure you are also right, I had curves under the eyes concerning the
hydrogen cracking. But you really have to go down in pressure (from 1/100 to 1/1000 atm)
for the cracked / non-cracked proportion to be really increased ...
is quite far with the suction of a motor (1/10 atm).
What surprises me is that cracking when refining oil is always (to my
knowledge) done under pressure (a few dozen atmospheres) ... Is it for better
control the process? I think so (if not too fast cracking and molecules can be
too small so carbonated ...)
but we don't necessarily need a pump to have a vacuum, with a T venturi we can have
a very suitable vacuum by passing water inside, to meditate c interesting
I can't exceed 30% savings, this will correspond to the maximum of the losses we
can recover from the exhaust, obviously if we could go and find it in the circuit
antifreeze cooling (in modern engines these losses are higher than in
the exhaust .. (theoretically if we could recover all the energy from the exhaust we
could save 50% to 60% on fuel
There is also something else happening at the time of combustion
the engine oil stays cleaner (I drove 8200km with water doping without adding
oil and it was surprisingly clean)
Now talking about hydrogen, we should take measurements
On the other hand I know that the Lambda probe detects a high level of oxygen in the exhaust (but
this measure does not necessarily mean that there is oxygen in the exhaust) and if
where does this oxygen come from? and if it comes from water it means that it must also
have a decomposition somewhere ..
Another amazing fact I replaced the bubbler water with pure alcohol
I did not see a much higher yield than water doping (this is an observation
preliminary done in cold weather -10c)
so I have to repeat this experience in good summer conditions.
By adding water to the intake of an engine, in the visible vapor state (in the form of micro-
droplets), preferably warm (so that once in the cylinders, it does not absorb
unnecessarily).
During the compression phase, this water absorbs part of the energy from heating
gases (since there is compression), while remaining in the vapor state since the pressure increases.
This pressure increases, but less than if there was no water, since as I described
the water absorbs part of the rise in temperature, therefore in pressure, thereby reducing the
antagonistic thrust to the piston (braking it less to use a simpler expression).
Arriving at a certain stage, near neutral, the temperature (can be helped by the start of
combustion of hydrocarbons) becomes such that the state of the water necessarily goes into phase
gas, thereby significantly increasing the pressure in the cylinders, and restoring, during the
relaxation, part of the energy previously acquired, just when it is interesting
push the pistons, since this is the driving phase, that of combustion, where the
piston goes back down.
Thus the water would play the role of pressure retarder, facilitating the rise of the pistons, then
helping the pistons during their descent. This would have the effect of optimizing the yield.
Now what happens with pantonized steam, at 180c which goes into a diesel engine at
time of very high compression:
normally this water vapor should condense
Principle of the system of rerigeration, to then evaporate at the time of the explosion.
plasmatron:
With 7% of hydrogen-rich gas supplied to the engine, NOx and CO are lowered. However,
if the concentration of hydrogenated gas is too high (more than 20%) compared to the whole of the
mass of fuel, it hinders the oxidation of hydrocarbons, which increases releases.
this would explain that too much water consumption increases consumption and rejections.
Too much water may also be: Reactor malfunction
a large part of this water would not undergo any reaction and would enter as is into the
engine.
ps: in my opinion it is not necessary to drive the reactor with a carburetor.
nor heat the bubbler too much (40 ° in my opinion is the best).
or you have to put a filter or a sponge at the outlet of the bubbler.
Why?
because the drops of water are bigger with carburetor or overheating.
they slip without anything in the reactor.
of course without much heating, the sucked air contains - water.
so you may also need to plug a little + the air filter.
but this must be largely compensated by a better use of the reactor.
something else
have some tried to strongly reduce (see delete) the injection advance
and increase the injection pressure
to reduce the injection time and therefore the combustion time?
(read p 17 david to understand)
reply to andre:
it is practically certain of the presence of hydrogen because the pressure conditions and
temperatures at the time of combustion are suitable.
(even if at the outlet of the reactor it is only dry steam and can be ionized or I do not
not know what)
in action auto moto (magazine that dismantles the pants in a way that is not at all objective)
there is an interesting info anyway:
the water molecule cracks under 1000 ° at several hundred bars
and under 4000 ° at 1,5 bars.
at the time of combustion the temperature reaches well 2000 ° see + no?
the pressure must be at least 20 bars in diesel? (80 apparently)
11 or 12 in essence? (probably +)
figures to verify
When the super explosion, I don't believe it at all
All water-doped engines, especially diesels, as well as gasoline engines with high
compression, they become silent we no longer hear this sudden ignition
Rather, I think spreading the pressure greatly improves efficiency.
In general, all engines with a large lead are engines of (poor) design
if we put a lot ahead it is because the combustion is not fast enough.
Remain on automotive diesel, which is a special case a semi-diesel, as opposed to
boat diesel (real diesel)
the injection should be made when the volume of compressed air is the smallest and the most
hot, but for reasons of expansion of the injector pipes, rotation speed and
duration of the ignition of the diesel one is forced to have advance,
unlike real diesel, in a semi-diesel we inject all the diesel in a very short time
short, the problem it creates:
the first drops injected instantly boil, the other drops that follow arrive
in a flame and in a lack of air (despite the large amount of air which is far from
the injector)
we have not yet reached the top dead center, but very close, these drops vaporizes with the
heat and with turbulence meets the air, as the piston is stopped it is in its position
of rocker for the descent this mass combustion gives a shock, therefore a brutal pressure
in a reduced room, piston stopped it is the noise of diesel, this shock is a loss of
performance,
this poor combustion generates soot and unburnt
In a real slow diesel this combustion is spread out during the descent of the piston.
With water doping combustion becomes more spread out, we get closer to real diesel ...
In an engine we speak of an explosion, but we should rather speak of a flame front, which
is not comparable to a detonation
A detonation is a very rapid combustion of the whole mass, it applies to explosives
and again, the faster the detonation speed the more the explosive will break, (this is another
story about combustion which does not interest us for our pants).
take the spreading hypothesis:
at the top dead center, the burning hydrocarbon molecules causes pressure
huge compared to the smallness of the cylinder chamber at this time.
molecules that burn when the piston is already lowered are effective.
(because the detante is in a larger room).
moreover if the high compression motors have better efficiency it is good for some
thing.
more heat-pressure has + time to lower the piston when it acts the + tot (point
dead high).
according to david the moment when the engine has its real efficiency = theoretically is the neutral moment
high.
in terms of diesel noise:
maybe this is it? (not the click = auto-ignition) which causes it:
pressures on the sides of the pistons,
instead of an identical explosion at all points (which only attaches to push the piston
down rather than banging it from left to right)
here are the tests that I intend to do:
acceleration at the bottom of 1st and 2nd without and with pants.
speed measurements.
ditto with pantonne.
and also ditto with stop at the half of the acceleration stroke.
because what surprises me is that the consumption sometimes decreases by 30%, and the power increases by 10%
only.
in my opinion the panton works mainly in the acceleration range from 1/3 to 1/2 of the pedal.
for the tests you plan to do why not. Personally the difference between with and
without reactor in my case is almost undetectable. Chrono level I don't know.
Regarding the water flow. It seems that it takes only one liter per 100km on average.
I use a small aquarium type tap. Put it in the car and make the settings in
rolling. If there is too much water your engine forces to accelerate. But this is in case you
uses a homemade water carburetor.
pitmix
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 37, 1 edited once.
0 x
here is finished
the other reactions I was going to erase them
a+
I hope it's better
the other reactions I was going to erase them
a+
I hope it's better
Last edited by tryf the 21 / 04 / 06, 22: 38, 1 edited once.
0 x
tryf 
I find your idea very good (I recognize my posts), BUT the problem is that we do not know who posted this info, for example:
I totally agree that the news is very scattered. As far as I'm concerned, I have spotted a few relevant speakers and I'm going where they are, but I may be missing some good information that is elsewhere.
Communication lasts, even on the internet.
I find your idea very good (I recognize my posts), BUT the problem is that we do not know who posted this info, for example:
I have 40 000km on the meter, with a (egr) pantone, I recycle the exhaust, and ca
rolled side depollution is massive on my old diesel !!! and goes from 9 to 6 liter according to the
proto ...! test on the bench!
I totally agree that the news is very scattered. As far as I'm concerned, I have spotted a few relevant speakers and I'm going where they are, but I may be missing some good information that is elsewhere.
Communication lasts, even on the internet.
0 x
Only when he has brought down the last tree, the last river contaminated, the last fish caught that man will realize that money is not edible (Indian MOHAWK).
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 25 Replies
- 23462 views
-
Last message by Christophe
View the latest post
12/03/16, 03:18A subject posted in the forum : Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations
-
- 6 Replies
- 8328 views
-
Last message by Other
View the latest post
02/08/06, 02:56A subject posted in the forum : Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations
-
- 3 Replies
- 5363 views
-
Last message by camel1
View the latest post
12/07/06, 20:52A subject posted in the forum : Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations
-
- 8 Replies
- 15892 views
-
Last message by phil 14
View the latest post
08/04/06, 20:28A subject posted in the forum : Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations
-
- 62 Replies
- 87292 views
-
Last message by mmm
View the latest post
24/03/06, 22:31A subject posted in the forum : Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations
Go back to "Water injection in heat engines: information and explanations"
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 144 guests