Queries from a new one!

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
Why not ?
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
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Registration: 04/05/06, 18:40
Location: Saint Malo- Paris- Calais

Queries from a new one!




by Why not ? » 07/05/06, 21:19

Hello everyone,

I discovered the existence of Pantone processes ten days ago, I signed up for this forum three days ago, and that's it, your energy and mentality to all converted me.

I have been running on oil (50%) since last July (with a break from January to April, due to the low winter temperatures).

I have already scribbled qq ideas drawn from your experiences to pantonize my Golf II Diesel atmo, which totals 416 000Km and I use it regularly to drive (about 2000Km / Month). I think my use is ideal for this process since I do not make a short trip with it. When I start it is to make the mini 300Km with.

But like any beginner I have qq "stupid" questions to ask:

My project:

- Water doping.
- A rod of 14/200
- A tube of 16/300
- A bubbler separated from the reactor
- the reactor directly inserted into the exhaust just after the manifold.
- ...

My first questions:

- Should we heat the bubbler, and of what order?
- Should the gases leaving the reactor be as hot as possible, or not? (because in the navy on our "huge" engine we cool the intake air ...
- I understand that the steam generator allows to better follow the demand of the engine (compared to a direct bubbler). But if we place 2 air inlets in the bubbler, a wide and a narrow one allowing to "collect" more or less the depression due to the suction ???

Here.

Forgive my inexperience, but I told myself that if I continued to read you without participating, it was not very nice. In addition with your help I will probably avoid beginner mistakes.
I have a lot of free time with my job, and I think I will soon take the plunge ... I still have to invest in a welding machine ...

last question, I arrive at the date of my technical control, is it better that I present myself before the changes or after?

Thank you and mechanic well for the end of this we.
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by Other » 08/05/06, 00:01

Hello
The Gulf has approximately the same block as the Jetta
There is a nice place at the exit of the collector, place vertically to make entry by the elbow under the tank, although the length of the reactor may be a little tight if you want to go to 200mm
150 and 200 mm this has very little influence on the yield
the air gap 1mm around this value + or - is more important
The bubbler heating with engine water is more complicated to house is to do on the vehicle, but the operation of the reactor is easier than the other simpler means, such, carburetor or injection ect. more delicate point, it depends on whether you are looking for simple operation or simple construction.
In terms of water doping control as you make long trips, you organize to optimize the system at 100kmh and more. at low speed it sucks less steam so it is self-regulating, if you have a good idea of ​​the suction system in the intake manifold. certain poses a simple bevel cut
others make a slight restriction, others like me a venturi
big enough to minimize restrictions.

the air inlet in the bubbler must be in a 3/4 pipe or 20mm or more duct (not for reasons of restriction) for reasons of bubbling.
If possible have a constant level in the bubbler, especially if it is small, small bubblers are more difficult to develop, they have the advantage of being more quickly operational.
We can not control the bubbler by a restriction of the air intake, if you restrict you consume as much water as wide open!
If you want to make a restriction it is at the outlet of the bubbler, some we do at the outlet of the reactor, but the regulation is done by the suction of the engine.

The output of the reactor, the maximum heat is not a criterion for the operation of the reactor, around 120c it works and at 200 c it may not work, the heat gives an overview, not an assurance that it works.
The efficiency of the reactor increases with the power required from the engine.
If you drive a lot with the engine open 120kmh and more on long journeys it will be interesting.

In summer you can increase the oil to 60% and + son works like that, it passes the oil through a heater before the filter. save that it decreases the% in the fall and stops the oil in November and it gradually resumes in April, we live in a northern country ...

Andre
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Why not ?
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 04/05/06, 18:40
Location: Saint Malo- Paris- Calais




by Why not ? » 08/05/06, 14:32

Thank you André for these first infos.

I'm going to cogitate all this and come back at the end of the afternoon.

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Why not ?
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 04/05/06, 18:40
Location: Saint Malo- Paris- Calais

Intake air




by Why not ? » 09/05/06, 21:12

Good evening everyone,

I come back to the charge with my questions ...

I can't find info on a problem that annoys me ... I'll tell you:

I understand that the ideal was to send the GEET gas leaving the reactor directly into the intake pipe after the air filter ... Only, I also understood that it was at the reactor outlet that we had the highest temperatures (which doesn't surprise me either). But then, this very hot gas (how much ????) would go directly into the combustion chambers of our good old Diesel ????? Yet it seemed to me that it was better that the air was not too hot for engine performance ... would it be different with "Pantonisation".

And also,

Do you think it is necessary to increase the exhaust diameter at the place where the reactor is slid? Or does the restriction allow an acceleration of the gases favorable to the heating of the reactor tube? For me, I thought that it was not good to decrease the space provided by the manufacturer for the exhaust .... Since to "inflate" the engines, we start by putting a direct line (exhaust)? ?

Thank you for your help.
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Re: Intake air




by lau » 10/05/06, 00:07

NS!

* I believe that if we succeeded in creating an artificial cooling at the reactor outlet we could have surprises: another idea for a test. André had noticed a different behavior from the chevrolet by diffusing fresh air at this reactor outlet.

* For the second question if we make a restriction, we can have overconsumption at high speed and too much space would be harmful to the reactor. On my reactor I made a double corp with double circulation, the passage of gases is very tormented. I did not note anything special in general behavior and I have plans (for the fall) to put a classic reactor to see if there is a difference in consumption.
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by Other » 10/05/06, 04:40

Hello
the ideal is to send what comes out of the reactor directly into the intake manifold somehow in the hole of each cylinder just in front of the valves, this position promotes suction and if that's what I think, that the product which leaves the reactor, (has a short life), if it is diluted in a long inlet pipe or through the turbine of a turbo and intercooler.
For reasons of simplicity most do not pierce the intake manifold to access directly into the engine, let alone turbo diesel, it is generally in front of the turbo or in the manifold near the cylinder head.
For the size of the passage of the gases, normally the manufacturers are limited to the passage of the valves and in the cylinder head, therefore as soon as the gases leaves it increases the section, mainly to relax the exhaust gases for cooling. To favor the flow, it is preferable to have a duct of a certain diameter and a certain length, this promotes more flow than free exhaust to the cylinder head,
in general a 1,5 meter duct at the outlet of the cylinder head gives a 15% more power than free exhaust without duct, again the rotation speed comes into play.
All this to say that a certain restriction in a pulsating flow is not always harmful.
As far as we are concerned, we should not relax the exhaust gases before the reactor, normally the restriction caused by the reactor does not make a big decrease on the total power of the engine.
Obviously when you put a water doping pant on an engine it is not to get more power, it is the fuel economy that is targeted. Normally cars have enough power to be able to use them in normal driving at 60% of their capacity.
Now if we want competition cars we forget the Panton.

Andre
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by lau » 10/05/06, 10:29

What you say there is very interesting and is consistent with what Asgard says regarding the stitching.
I had read on the forum (zac I think?) who had stung himself on 2 cylinders and despite everything had very encouraging results.
The problem of the dilution of this ephemeral gas deserves to be deepened in any case. As far as I am concerned, I have a dilution which takes place soon after by ... the breather !! : Evil: Why not swap the 2 pipes?
Image
in the foreground: the pantone stitching and in the background behind the yellow gauge the arrival of the breather.

What can happen if I completely remove the recycling of the breather in the intake apart from of course an increase in depression which could allow me to have an even better bubbling with my iron lair of 0,75?
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by Other » 10/05/06, 16:26

Hello Lau

Normally the breather comes in front of the panton duct because most make a (throttling) to increase the depression therefore the breather would be subjected to too much depression it would tend to suck too much oil drops on used engines.

What is to know, that if the panton arrival is closer to the breech the better the depression, it is logical, the restriction of the tubing.

For the breather many engines there is a venting of the crankcase and an oil vapor outlet, in order to make a ventilation of the crankcase and certain engine have only a breather outlet, with those it is necessary to be careful if they are connected to the panton, in a certain low speed configuration with a hot engine, the internal pressure of the crankcase can rise and turn again, the crankshaft seals, So it is necessary to make a vent with the oil filler cap , (a vented plug which is original on certain vehicles) V-shaped motors almost all have a ventilation inlet on a rocker cover and a breather outlet on the other rocker cover.


Andre
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by lau » 11/05/06, 01:31

Ok but I intend to send the breather outlet directly to the bottom of the body, like on tractors.
In this way I would no longer have the disadvantage that I had until today: after a few km, the oil vapors appear, go into the pressure intake and my depression which is upstream (pantone stitching) suffers the knock! Why didn't I think about it earlier? Image
The only risk of disconnecting the recycling of the breather is perhaps a little more significant pollution (compensated by the pantone with better depression?) Or a more significant oil consumption?
* Having the sniffle swallowed by the reactor is not yet on the agenda, I am looking for a maximum of suction to play between a reduced iron (friction), moreover, I am still scalded by the hose explosion that I had from my crankcase overpressure.

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Re: Intake air




by zac » 11/05/06, 09:30

Why not ? wrote :Do you think it is necessary to increase the exhaust diameter at the place where the reactor is slid? A +

Hello
Especially not
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