Open Letter to Members of Pantone-econology

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
mmm
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Registration: 01/12/04, 01:30




by mmm » 15/03/06, 12:26

Good day Andrew, the temperature it is common, that the temperature steam, exhaust, exit of the reactor, to see the post of the 02 / 03 / 06 "excuses / diagram" the arrow thermocouple indicates it.
The insulation of the whole assembly, reactor, exhaust, pipe with the feed tube that I welded against the exhaust, (iron tube), except the metering injector, that gives the stability of all, this magic, you do not panic anymore to run after the temperatures.
André, your exit temperature boiler that good, but give me the temperature when it goes into the boiler, this gas temperature, increase, decrease the reactor temperature, is this beneficial, or not, this set of questions that made me doubt what I had realized.
The unification of the three temperatures in itself is a big step forward in the understanding of the Pantone, that the door of entry, it seems to me.
This is a point of support to leverage other solutions and evolutions, for example switch to High Pressure, high speed forgiveness, the multi reactor, refine the dimension, make a modeling or charter reactor.
For the speeds that you questioned, I did not consult any paper to be able to remain the most accessible for all, if I find that or nobody contradicts me for what not, in the case that I made a bug of apologies, but that's fine.
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by Other » 15/03/06, 19:31

Hello MMM
As far as temperatures are concerned, it is not a goal to reach
it is simply a den, if at such a temperature is such a depression I notice an improvement I am guided to certain value
who after experience are not poured into the cement, it takes haunts to advance.
The main measure I monitor is the steam outlet in the middle of the reactor outlet copper tube on an isolated part of the tube. although it is not always the case if I rely only on the feeling of being in a relationship, sometimes at lower temperatures it works well.
The exhaust gases I do not measure any more, although the two thermocouples are still connected, but as it is always the same values, which follow the power of the engine, it does not tell me much, what is looking for what which changes when it improves or does not work.

For the speed of the flame front I based myself on my military knowledge by comparing with explosives.
I think that there must be an error on the units it is rather cm instead of meters, when one speaks of km second one enters the expolites simple with low speeds, (cotton powder has projectile) not explosives explosions the it's much faster. As far as we are concerned it does not matter, just an order of magnitude to know that it burns very quickly.

I saw that you also measure the reactor output a bit like all the guys on the forum
my values ​​go from minimum to 80c to maximum plus 210c, but in stabile driving 100kmh this is held at 120c, but again if I restrict the passage of steam in the reactor the values ​​change upwards.

Andre
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 15/03/06, 20:08

If I understand what mmm means is that the operation of the reactor is good if one draws a triangular temperature diagram with three different measurement point and that the temperatures that one measures enters this diagram.
It joins what I thought to do with an entalpic diagram of the water with the temperatures at different points of the reactor. As on a refrigerating machine. So with the operating diagram we see at a glance what's wrong. As for any thermodynamic system.
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Woodcutter
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Re: ENGINE TEMPERATURE




by Woodcutter » 16/03/06, 00:12

mmm wrote:[..] I come back on the TAd in balance on TEch on the Audi A Quatro group A 70 years, 3L 600 engine ch, turbo compound, pressure 2.8 bar, forced to spray water on admission to cool on the intake air temperature, [...]
Uh .... : Shock:
Sorry, but I can not let that go!

Competition Quattro started in 1981, the basic model was presented at the Geneva Motor Show in March 1980.
The displacement of the engine was 2,1 l (2144 cm3 exactly at the beginning, then 2133 on evolution "Sport Quattro")
These cars did not never been equipped a turbo-compound, this technology has never even been installed on cars in series. We start to see it appear on SCANIA trucks.
It is highly unlikely that the power actually reached 600 ch on the rallies. On the other hand, this power was reached and certainly exceeded (at sea level) for the "Pikes-Peak" version.
Finally water injection was a technique used by all the brands engaged in Group B in the middle of the 80 years.
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 16/03/06, 06:14

Ah good yet a former driver said the 205 Turbo 16 and other Audi Quatro were in the 600, 700Cv I do not know which group it was.
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mmm
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UNIFICATION OF TEMPERATURE




by mmm » 16/03/06, 11:46

Let's go back to the measurement of temperature at this precise place of assembly, it is a question of checking, three things.
The temperature of the reactor, works or becomes operational. YES.
The temperature of the exhaust gas is sufficient to ensure the operation of the assembly. YES. Provided to make an isolation to alleviate the hazards of load and engine speed of a particular vehicle.
The temperature is sufficient to convert water into steam. YES. There is a problem. 85 ° C at atmospheric pressure the water does not tree, so perhaps it is that here the observations of André and others are joined, to the appearance of the fine droplets there is that thing that begins. I call it nebulization, I do not know if it's French. And at this temperature that begins to appear the gas bubbles in the bottom of a heated pan.
From this temperature and to the maximum that I reached that I did not notice anything quantifiable.
It seems to me that this point of the lever that I explained is very interesting, we can explore a rapid heating system, for vehicles that will have problems of warming up, or if there is courageous, I start .
Delete, VENTURI RENIFLARD is possible, it is possible, this easy to try, but please do not ask me questions. I did not try.
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Re: UNIFYING THE TEMPERATURE




by Cuicui » 16/03/06, 14:38

mmm wrote: I call it nebulization, I do not know if it's French.

Thank you mmm, nebulization (or misting), it's good French, it's the word I was looking for to distinguish the visible vapor (vapor, mist, fog, cloud) which are droplets of liquid suspended in the air, and the steam invisible water (humidity) which is a real gas. Too bad I do not know any other word in French to distinguish visible vapor (liquid) and vapor in the gas phase. Mist as well as water vapor also exist at less than 100 °, it depends on the atmospheric pressure and the percentage of humidity of the air. The hotter the air, the more it can be charged with water vapor. When the moisture-saturated air cools, the gaseous vapor condenses into fine droplets of liquid suspended in the air (mist or mist), and then settles as dew. Very cold air contains very little moisture. I still do not know whether to send in the Pantone reactor mist (André's hypohèse) or water vapor (invisible gas).
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Re: UNIFYING THE TEMPERATURE




by Woodcutter » 16/03/06, 21:30

Cuicui wrote:[...] Too bad I do not know any other word in French to distinguish visible vapor (liquid) and gas vapor. [...]
It's called an aerosol, it's a suspension of water droplets in a gaseous environment (in the air as far as we're concerned), "The particle size varies between 0,001 and 100 μm [...]"would tell you my favorite dictionary ...
Steam is an invisible gas.
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by Woodcutter » 16/03/06, 21:31

PITMIX wrote:Ah good yet a former driver said the 205 Turbo 16 and other Audi Quatro were in the 600, 700Cv I do not know which group it was.
In Rallycross, or hill climb for the "Pikes Peak" version for the Quattro S1, yes.

But not in rally ...
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Re: UNIFYING THE TEMPERATURE




by Cuicui » 17/03/06, 09:49

Woodcutter wrote:
Cuicui wrote:[...] Too bad I do not know any other word in French to distinguish visible vapor (liquid) and gas vapor. [...]
It's called an aerosol, it's a suspension of water droplets in a gaseous environment (in the air as far as we're concerned), "The particle size varies between 0,001 and 100 μm [...]"would tell you my favorite dictionary ...
Steam is an invisible gas.

Thank you Bucheron, it is well noted.
If I understood correctly :
- mist, fog = aerosol
- water vapor = invisible gas
Since it is common practice to improperly call "steam" what blows a kettle, what other name to give it to avoid confusion? "burning spray"? "white steam"?
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