Iron or stainless steel for pantone reactor?

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
JLS
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Registration: 20/04/06, 14:32




by JLS » 26/04/06, 09:45

Thanks Bolon,

Your records are very good, I like it in terms of analysis, it is a shame that results level, to the uncertainty of measurement, there is no difference in consumption with or without Pantone.

We had an unfortunate experience near us (fair expo agricultural) or the demo made a "flop" at the conso level on test bench ...

This is unfortunate because many pantoniseurs aim at priority economic benefits in the short term, while a plan of experience on test bench costs more than it yields ...

Next time, if you can, add to your records the conditions of tests, measuring equipment, type of reactor, etc ... it allows those who glean information (like you and me) to navigate through his doc. when a synthesis is needed.

Excellent job all the same

thanks again

J-Luc
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rezut
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by rezut » 26/04/06, 11:53

the worst is that but trying to test the prototypes of others we failed


hello asgard os tyr

I'm going for a test bench but you are on the map or because everywhere it's a bit vague and must not forget that my titin 260000 terminals and I try to spare it because of risk of failure (hydraulic or clutch) (original))
especially since I just put a venturi and now I have a conso of water of more than one liter 100 (too little be)
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zac
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by zac » 26/04/06, 15:38

rezut wrote:especially since I just put a venturi and now I have a conso of water of more than one liter 100 (too little be)


Hello
It risks nothing but it is too much, if you are carburetor decreases the nozzle if you are bubbler heater less.
@
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This is not because I am con I try not to do smart things.
bolt
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by bolt » 27/04/06, 00:03

JLS wrote:This is unfortunate because many pantoniseurs aim at priority economic benefits in the short term, while a plan of experience on test bench costs more than it yields ...


On the same tractor, with or without pantone (valve output reactor closed) there is no noticeable difference, but compare with the normal specific conso of a tractor, (references manufacturers and especially the official tests are not lacking: ACTA publications), you will see that it consumes a little more than normal.
I calculated that he is at 0,27 l / ch.h at 85% of the torque obtained at 2200 rpm (nominal speed)
It should be at 0,2315 l / ch.h(official test of the same model)

When you say that going on a test bench costs more than it brings back (the tractor owner was convinced he was consuming 12 l / h instead of 24 l / h for the same job, whilein fact it consumes 16,6% more (For really the same job) : Evil:
It's better to know, you do not grow?

If his pantone does not work better in the future, he'd better dismount it


I think he would have consumed "normal" if he had no restrictions in the intake and exhaust due to pantone mounting


JLS wrote:Next time, if you can, add to your records the conditions of tests, measuring equipment, type of reactor, etc ... it allows those who glean information (like you and me) to navigate through his doc.


The reactor is made of stainless steel, in a stainless steel tube (like spad)

I thought I could advise: do it like this or that way, going to test montages that "work"
For now, it would be rather: not to do like that

But what direction to take :?:

Look at this a bit:
http://www.onpeutlefaire.com/articles/a-pantone2.php

and tell me what you think?

Should the tractor be in very bad condition for the pantone to work? :?:

His, he walks after 40 seconds, the bubbler is not even hot yet

Then, he puts it to the accelerated idle speed (900 rpm), it then slowly closes a valve on the exhaust outlet, forcing the upstream stitching to "bubble in force" and there the engine starts to turn up to 3000 tr / min :?: :?:

Normally, the regulator based on 900 rpm cuts the entire fuel flow, if the engine takes turns.
What gives the ignition then at that moment :?:

If what comes from the bubbler, can catch fire of itself, still it is necessary that it does not take fire too much before the PMH

Is there so much unburned available in the exhaust, that ironing by the bubbler, there is enough fuel to maintain the engine :?:
But the regulator having completely shut down the fuel, it no longer feeds, at that moment, the output ech. in unburned.

So apparently, the energy comes only from the bubbler.

bolt
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by Other » 27/04/06, 03:45

Hello Bolt
What I think about editing
He made a significant restriction on admission, probably more than 50% (remains to be verified)
when it demnade of the power isolating the reactor via the bullleur, the engine misses of regime, in spite of the request of the throttle (not of the regulator) it lacks of air it makes it fummed pretty well, by opening an entry in the engine, the engine breathes through the reactor, takes turns and no longer smokes, nothing extraordinary in this demonstration.

Very easy to try on your vehicle, mouth the air intake generously and also mouth the reactor (easy in my case a small carburetor) accelerates the engine he has difficulty taking turns and it smokes, as soon as I removes the thumb of the carburettor, the engine leaves in fear and stops to fummer, it only breathes through the reactor (this is a method that I use to purge the carburetor and (pump) the reactor)

ZAC uses a similar method to (light) the reactor, although it uses larger carburetors than me 10mm and me 4,5mm so it must sip even more with 10mm.
I can not work well when I use carburetors bigger than 6mm. (I do not know how he manages to spray with 10mm nozzle, unless he places a choke and 3mm hole in front of the carburetor)
A xNUMX mm rod with an air gap of 14mm that gives approximately the area of ​​a hole of 1mm in diameter.

It should also be understood that this tractor we talk about at 7 reactors, so it can almost get the majority of its air through the reactors, if the heat is available of course, but if the tractor is in static disembarked the load is negligible the heat too ..

Now tractors make measurements at walking time
and we self is at 100km, it may look similar
but it's not the same comparison.
We had already discussed dilemma between pilot because we also calculate the consomation by the hour, We made measurements on a trip of 400km, it is obvious that the powerful airplane which consumed more at the hour was clearly more economical on a trip, because it goes faster, the gap is even greater in a trip upwind, it must be the same with a large tractor and a small following the effort required.
So a tractor would have to compare such size of land worked equal, what takes in diesel before panton and with panton.

Andre
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JLS
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by JLS » 27/04/06, 10:31

Hello Bolon,

Thank you for remembering that to quantify fuel efficiency or "economy", you need to start from sound bases if you want to give objective conclusions.

When I spoke to my brother (farmer) of the tractor N ° 22 (95CV) who consumed before pantone 22l / h then came down to 16 then 12, he laughed, noting that with 110CV he was satisfied 12L / h in charge work without smoking black.

I understand well that pantoniseurs prefer to tinker with old nails to test the case, but the results may be open to discussion.

And yet, there is certainly positive in all this, and particularly pollution, but working on old engines does not necessarily give great credibility to the system.

I repeat what I sent to York3K2 for its project TIPE Pantone reactor on a mower engine recovered:

You are considering a "scientific" study of the Pantonne process and I congratulate you because there are many practical applications, but few reliable figures.

I may be a little flabby joy but it seems to me that the engine is already too complex to start an experiment on this theme.

Indeed, in addition to the inevitable engine settings more or less hacked on a mill more or less worn, you will have to set up a whole armada of power measuring instruments, torque meter, consometer, etc ... because it is not enough not only that the engine is running, you have to know what's more in the use of the Pantone reactor.

Personally, an experience that seems to me basic and uplifting in terms of reactor performance, hydrocarbon kracking, easy to quantify and able to integrate a "lab" given its size, is the oil burner Mr.David ( See website As, M.David, Page8)

With almost nothing you turn a flame "oil" yellow and steaming in a torch "white flame" able to melt a steel blade around 1400 °!

If this experience is reproducible (I do not think there is cheating), it is to screw your ass on the floor!

Frankly, the guy who will be able to scientifically explore what is happening between entry and exit will deserve the praise of Pantonists of all stripes.


It is at this level (I think) that the cheapest, most objective and most flexible experiments can be conducted.

Because what happens in the engine, the limit we do not care, or rather we already know, and we know how a motor can be more or less powerful if only by its settings, then there , with an exotic fuel whose composition we do not even know, how do you want that from one application to another one can have comparable and reproducible results?

To study the reactor, it must be isolated.
Everything that revolves around, engine, tractor, and driver behavior can only cloud the work of research.

Did anyone else work on the reactor / burner?

Give your opinion on this experience

A big hat all the same to those who pantonize their tractor, it makes advance the chemilimiliblic ...

A+

J-Luc
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by Other » 27/04/06, 16:13

Hello JLS
Burner question, I worked on that in 1970 a few years
and I do not want to restart the panton system in a burner
What I can tell you I built a ball burner, whose plans I put on the internet,
This burnisher works with oil, and even al, the oil of the flame the flame is blue at the beginning and white according to which the oil is very heavy (oil of differrentiel or oil black)
The temperature of the flame, it melts copper ...
When I became aware of the panton system, I tried to put a panton rod in the burner to dope with water or improve it on the oil.
With water I had no improvement I would even say losses, there is a slight advantage over the fuel, the flame less white, a trend has green reflections, but slightly less global heat,
the disadvantage the reactor does not resist this temperature
only a tube of cast iron rests a little longer.
stainless steel is not better, oxide by galette ...
So I kept the original system a ball, with some improvements
Burning works better with oil than with oil or diesel.

In the end I learned a lot more about the panton in a small 125cc engine mount harness on a generator.

Do not run an explosion engine with fuel oil or exclusively with oil,
Put only one 10% of fuel oil in the gasoline of your car, and tell me if you manage to make it work ...

Andre
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JLS
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by JLS » 27/04/06, 17:43

Thank you André,

If in addition you could give me the address of the site or find the burner ball, it would tell me a little more because I do not know this system.

We must start one day ...

But I maintain my question:

How can one isolate and analyze the behavior of the reactor other than in a hyper simple system?

My goal is not to play with a lawn mower, but rather to define a lab setup in which everything that can be cleaned is, and what needs to be quantified is not subject to doubt of appreciation.

I respect the intensions of everyone to want to ride the water and less poluer but I can not just "copy a thing hoping it works"

It's a lot less interesting.

Thank you

A+
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Philippe Schutt
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by Philippe Schutt » 27/04/06, 19:26

JLS wrote:
Personally, an experience that seems to me basic and uplifting in terms of reactor performance, hydrocarbon kracking, easy to quantify and able to integrate a "lab" given its size, is the oil burner Mr.David ( See website As, M.David, Page8)

With almost nothing you turn a flame "oil" yellow and steaming in a torch "white flame" able to melt a steel blade around 1400 °!


J-Luc


Yeah, just heat the oil, no need for a pantone for that. Then, the oil that burns with the blue flame, DEVILLE has done for decades in their stoves, and without compressor or reactor. This experience is absolutely not convincing!
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bolt
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by bolt » 27/04/06, 23:49

good evening André
Review the site well,
for the test at 900 rpm, the steam valve is opened
It closes a second valve(at the exhaust exit)
and just before this valve there is a tee (tapping) that allows to take a part of the exhaust gas to send them off in force

It is therefore by gradually closing this valve that he has his engine packaged (previously set to 900 rpm)

As the accelerator is in the 900 rpm position, when it is racing, the injection pump automatically cuts the fuel flow, trying to regulate these 900 rpm (this is the normal work of the regulator, no?)

And for all that, he gets carried away anyway (up to 3000 tr) ......... with what :?:
O2 and H2 coming from the reactor :?: Even so, what gives the ignition, since the regulator has stopped the gas flow at this time

Andre wrote:A xNUMX mm rod with an air gap of 14mm that gives approximately the area of ​​a hole of 1mm in diameter.


Do not forget: even if the section is equivalent, the flow rate for the same pressure drop is different:

If you have eg. a pressure drop of 37,76 mb upstream / downstream of the 16 / 14 x 20 cm reactor (section = 47,124 mm²)
for a tube of equivalent section: diam int. 7,7459666 mm and same length (20 cm), the loss is only 6,38 mb (5,918 times less braked)
to have the same pressure loss, or you put a tube 7,7459666 XN 20 x 5,918 = 1,18 meter
either you put a tube diam int. 5,45 mm 20 cm length

For other length or section you can have fun on this link (I already said)
http://www.pressure-drop.com/

Weight of 3 / 4 air mixed with steam: about 1,2 kg / m3 at approx 85 ° C
Dynamic Viscosity: 14 10-6kg / ms (average that I took because it evolves all along the reactor and further in the pipe it cools)
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