GV which MAAAAAARCHE !!!!

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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camel1
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GVI version 2.0 ...




by camel1 » 10/07/06, 17:31

Hi everybody !

It's been a while since I intervened, but I did not sit idly by! : Cheesy:

The GV with coil exchanger, even in its last version, was still messing around, we had to review the drawing ...

The result of this adventure is there:

http://perso.orange.fr/systemeGplus/gv.htm#Suit100706

What I can say briefly here is that this time it works with little onions!

Good reading, cogitations, hacks, and ...

...happy Holidays to all ! :D

Michel
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 10/07/06, 20:35

Hello,

you re-invent hot water guys ...

it would have been better to make a copper pipe filled with stainless steel jex pad right? realization time 5min.

exchange surface 100 times greater than yours with a tube of 8x120 and a single weld so no mechanical constraint and after 20000km I can say that it holds pretty well ....
In addition there is nothing to say that the steam you produce should not be at 40 ° C rather than 95 ° C ... and I would tend to say for now it is better 40 ° C .. . seeing that at 85 ° C we consume more! (which is not the goal I want to remind you ...) In addition, this is confirmed by the tractor 22 with its 7 reactors because the more reactors there are the less the steam is heated ... since each reactor pumps part of the heat which would be completely exchanged if there was only one ... hence the best results of this tractor compared to the others.
But nevertheless your future tests will invalidate or confirm but say. Also I encourage you to make them (at 95 ° C).
One more note: the simpler the better it works and I think that by virtue of that you may still risk some setbacks ...
So if for condensate steam and water can cross it is the same for the output of the steam generator ...
Last edited by laurent.delaon the 11 / 07 / 06, 17: 42, 1 edited once.
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Other
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by Other » 10/07/06, 21:29

Hello Laurent


and I would tend to say for now it is better 40 ° C ... since at 85 ° C we consume more! (which is not the goal, I remind you ...


Could you elaborate, I think you are talking about the steam entering the reactor? or steam entering the engine?
Or simply to send humid air into the engine at low temperature?
The remark you made for the temperature is correct, it is wrong to believe that you have to look for the highest outlet temperature of the reactor to have the best performance.
A base speed in the reactor and a high temperature risks producing only gas vapor and very few micro-drops.


For the jex stainless steel pad, there is even better it is a felt soaked in water in a fairly large surface, the principle of the mop to evaporate.
In an 8mm duct, isn't it a little tight?
The only advantage of the small duct is that it prevents the drops from evaporating, which prevents relaxation.

André [/ quote]
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by laurent.delaon » 10/07/06, 21:54

Hello,

I'm talking about direct steam injection into the air intake (no pantone reactor since it is useless and could only raise the temperature of the steam so goodbye to wet steam)


I do not see the interest of the felt ... the stainless steel conducts the heat the felt not and therefore it is impossible to improve the exchange surface with a felt.

the hose is not too small because I can evaporate 1l / h so it's not too small.

There is no relaxation to speak of.
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by camel1 » 11/07/06, 01:10

Hi everybody !

For Laurent:

Question of wind mixing, I would like you to explain to me how ... I did not think I noticed anything else, in your posts, that negative comments on the usefulness of the reactor ... or of the GV .. .

Have you experimented with a reactor yourself, and what can allow you to make such an assertion?
Where are the plans, photos and results of your experiments?

If you are so sure of yourself, maybe you could give us a subject where you would explain your manipulations to us, with supporting evidence?

I do not pretend to hold the truth, since I am precisely in the process of experimenting, but I can sleep and already affirm to have obtained more than encouraging results, compared to the means and the time which I have ...

I am currently actively working on setting up a design office, with a test and development bench, allowing me to do as much setup as necessary to confirm or refute this or that hypothesis.

And, sorry to contradict you, but I don't think that the amount of water consumed per hour is a fact engraved in stone, since, in my opinion, it essentially depends on the processing capacity of the reactor, therefore its efficiency, and at this level, I think we can do much better!

I am one of those who think that the reactor has a decisive influence on the overall yield of the process, a number of achievements confirm this. So the question for me is not "does it work?", But rather "how do we make it work better?"

Everything else is effectively only "wind mixing".

A + + +

Michel
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by Other » 11/07/06, 05:05

Hello
I'm talking about direct steam injection into the air intake (no pantone reactor since it is useless and could only raise the temperature of the steam so goodbye to wet steam)


I think we did not have the same experiences, Yes a reactor that does not work is useless, just as an injection of steam in an engine is useless, just to clean the engine and the to consume more ..
What makes you think that once the drops of water pass in the reactor, there remains nothing but vapor in gas.
The high exhaust gas temperature?
with a well constructed water injection the gain is in the 10% on the economy and I think it will be difficult to increase this
this joins the principle of the VIX and other of the infusion needle that several one try in the 60s besides its great simplicity it is limited for the yield and I doubt that you can advance figures which borders on 30%,

For the felt, what you did not understand, in this way of making steam, it is not the use of heat, but rather the passage of air (dry) in a damp sponge it dries up, the result is to obtain a humid air close to saturation.
The most beautiful evaporation system is the leaf of a tree subjected to a light breeze, it works whatever the temperature
conifers evaporate in winter!
A felt has a large surface compared to a metallic sponge,
With the use according to the water used the felt ends up getting dirty and becoming less penetrating, with a metallic sponge it gets dirty less
but to have enough surface, you have to compact it on a 5 to 6 inch.

evaporation (produces cold) or rather absorbs the surrounding heat, the only heat that must be provided is only to compensate for this absorption.

There are many ways to make wet steam,
a bubbler, a carburetor, an injector, a nebulizer, a wet sponge, or a SGS like Michel. All these systems make humid air not by boiling (there is a tractor the Deutz or the cultivator sometimes says it boils it is very possible, but given the large size of the bubbler there is a partial recondensation the reactor in the end eat small drops of water.
or partially recondensed steam.
The reactor does not produce steam. At the speed that the drops of water pass, they do not have time to vaporize.
An operational reactor whatever the heat of the reactor if there is enough drops of water there the outlet temperature is within 100c, however the exhaust is at 600c to 700c
(a drop of water projected on a red iron plate breaks and rebounds into a multitude of microdrops.
Why does the internal rod of the reactor turn blue? it's not by thermal conductivity with the reactor the only contact is 3 solder points in the hot part .., however what comes out of the reactor is not hot enough to give such a color to the rod,

Andre
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by Woodcutter » 11/07/06, 10:36

Hi Michel,

congratulations for your achievements and your stubbornness! : Mrgreen:

One word: keep going, and don't forget the little CRs. For those who follow it from afar like me, it is essential to be able to follow your path thanks to this information ... : Wink:

PS: and let the easy critics speak ... : roll:
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by laurent.delaon » 11/07/06, 18:02

[quote = "camel1"] Hello everyone!

Wind mixing question, I would like you to explain to me how ... The expression is badly chosen indeed I think that it is better to use the term reinvent hot water ... Simply because I have given you the information necessary to carry out a GV and that you take it into account over the problems that you meet!

I didn't think I noticed anything else in your posts other than negative comments about the usefulness of the reactor ... or the GV ...

Not positively positive negative have you an example with releve conso of a car with Pantone reactor that works?
Rated = at least five full consecutives with mileage and quantity essence.

Have you experimented with a reactor yourself, and what can allow you to make such an assertion?
Where are the plans, photos and results of your experiments?

No, I did not experiment and realize a Pantone reactor. But I realized a GV you know it as well as me because I communicated to you in full the way of making a GV.

My results are not terrible because I have concerns about water flow. However, I definitely get the + 10% (at each refill) and I have already achieved 20% but this remains to be confirmed. (Without Pantone reactor). So no more co-immunization than that for the moment which is normal .
I affirm by the logic of things by having noted the result that I obtained with hot steam and cold steam and also by having analyzed the comments of Pantone on tractor (who say like me if they read their remarks well ...)
If you are so sure of yourself, maybe you could give us a subject where you would explain your manipulations to us, with supporting evidence?
For the moment not seen that my results are not fixed but on the other hand Pitmix will be able to tell you that the follow-up of my results and serious ... (finally I hope I count on him; o))
I do not pretend to hold the truth, since I am precisely in the process of experimenting, but I can sleep and already affirm to have obtained more than encouraging results, compared to the means and the time which I have ...
I too could say that quickly enough ... for the qualitative for the quantitative it's another story ...

I am currently actively working on setting up a design office, with a test and development bench, allowing me to do as much setup as necessary to confirm or refute this or that hypothesis.
That's right...

And, sorry to contradict you, but I don't think that the amount of water consumed per hour is a fact engraved in stone, since, in my opinion, it essentially depends on the processing capacity of the reactor, therefore its efficiency, and at this level, I think we can do much better!
I think you did not understand I just wanted to show the fact that my pipes could charge up to this flow, I do not say that it is useful or anything else ... well yes I can evaporate up to 2l / h ...
I am one of those who think that the reactor has a decisive influence on the overall yield of the process, a number of achievements confirm this. So the question for me is not "does it work?", But rather "how do we make it work better?"
good question the same achievements can also invalidate the results obtained with a reactor ...

Everything else is effectively only "wind mixing".
if you say so...
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by laurent.delaon » 11/07/06, 18:12

Andre wrote:Hello


I think we did not have the same experiences, Yes a reactor that does not work is useless, just as an injection of steam in an engine is useless, just to clean the engine and the to consume more ..
What makes you think that once the drops of water pass in the reactor, there remains nothing but vapor in gas.
The high exhaust gas temperature?


Physics simply.

with a well constructed water injection the gain is in the 10% on the economy and I think it will be difficult to increase this
apparently it must be true c hard to exceed 10% but know that I got 20% anyway ...

this joins the principle of the VIX and other of the infusion needle that several one try in the 60s besides its great simplicity it is limited for the yield and I doubt that you can advance figures which borders on 30%,
you're right i didn't do it ...

For the felt, what you did not understand, in this way of making steam, it is not the use of heat, but rather the passage of air (dry) in a damp sponge it dries up, the result is to obtain a humid air close to saturation.
no I think it's wrong: you evaporate water this way but you don't get saturated humid air.


A felt has a large surface compared to a metallic sponge,
With the use according to the water used the felt ends up getting dirty and becoming less penetrating, with a metallic sponge it gets dirty less
but to have enough surface, you have to compact it on a 5 to 6 inch.

Yes surely...

evaporation (produces cold) or rather absorbs the surrounding heat, the only heat that must be provided is only to compensate for this absorption.

There are many ways to make wet steam,
a bubbler, YES
a carburetor, NO
an injector, NO
a nebulizer, NO
a wet sponge, YES
or a GV It's a bubbler
like Michel.
All these systems make humid air not by boiling (there is a tractor the Deutz or the cultivator sometimes says it boils it is very possible, but given the large size of the bubbler there is a partial recondensation the reactor in the end eat small drops of water.
or partially recondensed steam.
The reactor does not produce steam. At the speed that the drops of water pass, they do not have time to vaporize.
I seem to remember that you did not always say that it seems to me ...

An operational reactor whatever the heat of the reactor if there is enough drops of water there the outlet temperature is within 100c, however the exhaust is at 600c to 700c
(a drop of water projected on a red iron plate breaks and rebounds into a multitude of microdrops.
Why does the internal rod of the reactor turn blue?
all simply because it heats up a bit we could put a rod in an oven and heat it several times to see?

it is not by thermal conductivity with the reactor the only contact is 3 solder points in the hot part .., however what comes out of the reactor is not hot enough to give such a color to the rod,
Not hot enough? I thought it was very hot ?? I do not understand anymore ...

Andre
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camel1
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by camel1 » 11/07/06, 23:36

Laurent,

The expression is badly chosen indeed I think that it is better to use the term reinvent hot water ... Simply because I have given you the information necessary to carry out a GV and that you take it into account over the problems that you meet!


Thank you again for your precious information, just a small correction, however, it's been almost four years now that I cogitate on the pantone, first on the forum Yahoo pmc france (it must say something to some : Cheesy: ) then on econology. I decided to take action a year ago, after collecting a lot of information on the subject, knowing that on this 205, things were going to be delicate ... and sorry to contradict you, but the idea of ​​the GV came to me long before I knew you ... even if it is true that some of your suggestions made during the development were good.

I very early opted for the SGS for two reasons: the problem of space (compactness), and the desire to obtain the lowest thermal inertia possible, so as to have a system that can meet the challenge of automotive conditions, with variable power regime ... things that I explain in more detail on my site.

Finally, to close on the anteriority, I found that, dated 10 Oct 2005 https://www.econologie.com/forums/generateur ... vt668.html

where there is a debate around your idea of ​​direct steam injection ...

and that, as of 02 Sep 2005:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ca-bouge-dans-la-loire-t692.html

which reports on the start of the construction of our prototype with GV ... knowing that between this moment and the start of the design (several different versions of plans) it happened a few months ...

You will notice for the rest that as a general rule, I cite my sources, and that I do not try to appropriate the ideas of others (I do not have an enlarged ego ...)

Not positively positive negative have you an example with releve conso of a car with Pantone reactor that works?
Rated = at least five full consecutives with mileage and quantity essence.


Again, sorry to contradict you, but yes, I can at least quote Kevin, whom I met, who came here, who has a lot of experience, with 7 protos to his credit, and lots of conso statements, which plague because it has not yet been able to blow the barrier 30%, but approached (I do not have the exact figure in mind ...
We had a fascinating (and long) discussion about his work, and we decided to collaborate on our next studies ... I can tell you that this is heavy, far from a simple doping with steam!

And I will soon meet another guy who has been working on it for three years, an organic farmer, everything has happened at home, from the mower to the tractor, there too, big feedback in perspective ...

It's guys like that that can get things done, not guys who think it's too complicated, and try to simplify as much as possible, even to denigrate what they do not have the courage where the desire to achieve.

I'm sorry that you were not the first to have the idea of ​​sending steam without pantone, and to have obtained more or less similar results, I leave you the task of doing research on it, sometimes you would like to benefit from their feedback.

I would not go further in this controversy, I have many other cats to whip, but I give you an appointment in September, because here I would finally have scientifically indisputable results, which will put an end at this kind of blot.

Cho!
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