Instant steam generator

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
Other
Pantone engine Researcher
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Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
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by Other » 30/10/05, 02:07

Bonjour,
The computer after formatting and again in operation
For the bubbler we talk about a certain height of the bubbler, because bubbling makes a storm in the liquid and it takes a certain place for the steam to bloom, or if the bubbler is small in height it takes deflectors (bafel) so that the reactor swallows the waves of liquid broths, that's all it's a question of common sense ..
Andre
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PITMIX
Pantone engine Researcher
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by PITMIX » 30/10/05, 08:52

I took a glass jar I will make a bubbler I would use a vacuum cleaner to create depression I want to see what happens inside. I saw what it gives with a bubbling created by the exhaust but not in the open air. Then I'll bring my jar to the boil and I'll try to get the vapors into the hot reactor always with my vacuum cleaner to see the gas coming out. I'm tired of not knowing.
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laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
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Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

Explanation on the steam




by laurent.delaon » 11/11/05, 16:56

Hello,

Three-state water: solid (ice) liquid (water) vapor (gas).
We pass from one to the other in a reversible way by modifying the temperature
and / or the pressure.
During the steam-to-atmospheric pressure transition (1bar) it vaporizes to 90 ° C, say 100 ° C.
The steam is said to be wet a little below this temperature
MAIS at 101 ° C it is called steam dry. Point bar. That's all!
There is no question of gentle vaporization, white or transparent vapor etc ...
There is no water in the dry steam (no small drop or fat) above this temperature of 100 ° C this is THAT steam.
On the other hand if one brings heat it becomes overheated. She can, and she's storing heat. It's even a very good accumulator of
heat.

From all this it is clear that the vaporization rate does not change anything at all
in the end it is only steam in our case that is dry and overheated (above 100 ° C).
The bubbler is useless if the steam that comes out is at first necessarily for 100 ° C (since below 100 ° it is water wholesale) then it is overheated by the pantone reactor. Just overheat directly, it's exactly the same. (eg with the carburetor which vaporizes it before the entry of the reactor then there is vaporization of the drops in the reactor).

On the other hand, in the case of Andre, in his water doping, why does 12km work and nothing after?
an explanation: the engine rises in temperature, then provides enough heat to overheat the steam a may be about 180 ° C.
When this vapor arrives in the combustion chamber, the gas vaporizes and the water-doping effect starts.
And we must (I think) be just at the minimum temperature necessary for it to work. So the doping starts but there is need for less diesel to walk and therefore the exhaust gases are less important, "cool down", or rather does not bring enough heat, and it will not work anymore, because the steam no longer hot enough to trigger the phenomenon.

An observation ;
If we put water spray (droplets) in the superheated steam:
the droplets vaporise necessarily but have they time all to vaporize before reaching the combustion chamber?
by vaporizing the droplet causes the tempering of the steam to fall.
(just as in the reactor the temperature of the gases is absorbed by the vaporization).
Anyway when the pressure increases the vaporization is certain
and then follows the explosion. There will be no picture.
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Other
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by Other » 11/11/05, 17:56

Hello
I agree with you about the steam above
100c at atmospheric pressure,
but I still do not understand that's what 60c air contains
Steam or water in suspense?
it is certain that we see clouds, and by pilot experience I know that when we fly the temperature slowly decreases while gaining altitude, but at the level of the clouds it drops at once.
Now what happens with steam to 180c that gets into a diesel engine at the time of the very high compression.
normally this water vapor should condense
Principle of the system of rerigeration, to then evaporate at the time of the explosion.
Now to vaporize the water in the reactor there is a time factor, even an explosion in an engine that takes a time
millisecond, that's all that needs to be elucidated ...
Andre
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laurent.delaon
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I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

no matter what's inside ...




by laurent.delaon » 11/11/05, 20:36

Hello,

The superheated steam enters the combustion chamber, two possibilities:
1) we go from 1bar to 80bar and the volume decreases: we overheat more
ou
2) we go from 1 bar to 80 bar and the volume decreases: so we condense state change (steam in water) with little drop in temperature? ... (it looks oddly to the injection of water directly into the engine huh? .... with as a bonus vaporization of the diesel probably at least at the beginning)

it does not matter to ignore what is happening, (but it's interesting to know ...) because the important thing is to realize that it is only the steam inlet temperature that counts and that must be determined for:
1) adapt the exchanger to have the right steam temperature
2) simplify (strongly) editing

I will look more from the point of view thermo how it happens.
Heuu:
for water at 60 ° C I did not understand what pressure?
otherwise the water does not vaporize instantaneously according to the conditions of pressure temperature if one is 1bar and less than 100 ° C there will be the two phases water + vapor (two-phase system) as in the steels (solidus liquidus) and when one is in diphasic there will be a percentage of water which under 1bar will become null with the approach of 100 ° C 0% water 100% vapor. Some of the water is formed or reformed in steam or rather condensed in steam but only below 100 ° c and under 1 bar. (I'm not sure but I think some of the water is torn off with steam too)

For the cloud it seems to me not abnormal water that is actually steam that is condensed to absorb heat
which causes a drop in temperature locally
the volume of the steam decreases the pressure must remain the same
and so the temperature goes down too, right?
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Other
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by Other » 11/11/05, 22:35

Hello
A few months ago I thought that it worked in the same principle as a heat pump system, but with the tests it is not quite that, although it has a lot of analogy and questions to which I have no answer.
Let me explain
We could very well make a heat pump system with either alcohol or water, the cycle is similar to that of freon
only the pressures and temperatures are different
So the reactor would be the evaporator and for an evaporator to work well, it must pass from the liquid state or better fine droplets, passing through the reactor under a depression, evaporating it absorbs all the surrounding heat (that of the exhaust)
then this steam enters the cylinder in depression, at the moment of the compression 80 bars, a little before the injection at the end of the stroke of the piston (normally this vapor should this condense if the pressure and sufficiently high and the temperature does not exceed the saturation limit for the given pressure, and it is only at that moment that during the condensation cycle there is a return of the energy that has been taken from the exhaust gases.
Then injection this water vaporizes that reached the brutality of the diesel and that gives a spreading of the pressure on the piston in the relaxation, it is the way that I saw the system,
but what is it for a low compression compression engine, we arrive at the same resutat in water doping, in this case the temperature of injected vapor is even higher
(I do tests on two vehicles gasoline is diesel and I compare)
Another more disturbing fact instead of doping with water I tested doping 30% water and alcohol normally I should have had a marked improvement since alcohol is combustible, it is only slightly better compared to the water,
On my Chevrolet gasoline, next week I will test doping only pure alcohol, of course I will adjust the wealth as a result of injectors gasoline and I must take into account the consumption of alcohol, if it works like a system refrigerant it is necessary to take into account the temperatures and the pressures according to the fluids used.
What led me to believe that it worked according to this principle is that I had noticed that the more the exhaust was cold after the better reactor was the yield.
In reality there is something else that occurs in the combustion chamber at the end of compression and during combustion.
What also intrigues me is why the Lambda probe detects oxygen in the exhaust, and if it is true where does this oxygen come from? why it has not served completely to the combustion (case of the gasoline engine) and if the oxygen comes from the water, it means a certain part of water it is decomposed? where is the hydrogen? you will tell me burnt, but why did not she consume her oxygen?
Another remark the consumption of water
The engine that I have is between 1 2 liters consume more yield drop.
Contrary to what many people think, we should not send hot steam into the reactor, not only does it drop but the reactor does not work anymore.
Yet there are continually builders who repeat this mistake, I hope that those who have tried to write it on the forum.
If it was the case we would make a good tubular heat exchanger to steam and go into the pipe of admissions, easy test to do with an electric kettle on a small stationary engine, result more than negative.


Andre

Andre
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laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

the following of the steam overheats in the room ...




by laurent.delaon » 12/11/05, 10:11

Hello,

yes, there may be something that happens with the water (not the steam) in the room and that could explain why
the carbon disappears and why the yield increases (for that it requires a contribution). It could be something like this:
H2O + C -> CO + H2
we have dihydrogen

as for the test of the kettle I realized 15min with a paper stripper on my self: nothing happens (no white steam at the exhaust and no rises).
But an important remark the steam must be overheated I am sure, so in this case it is not abnormal that nothing happens because 100 ° C is insufficient. I must think more than 150 ° c
(ie 130 ° C on arrival in the room, which corresponds to the vaporization temperature of the gas)
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Other
Pantone engine Researcher
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Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
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by Other » 14/11/05, 02:02

Hello Laurent
With regard to the temperature of the steam leaving the reactor
I do not think that this should have a big influence on the final temperature at the end of compression
Let me explain,
if we consider the amount of air and steam that passes between a rod of 14mm and the reactor is the size of a pipe of 12mm
of diameter at the most according to the stem and the game
The amount of air that a diesel engine can swallow even worse with a turbo,
it must be less than 10% so even if this steam + air is diluted in the air mass of the engine it should not raise the temperature of many (some can calculate it)
So the water vapor in the air has another role in the engine.
The cleaning side of our grandfather knew it when he made the engine drink a cup of water to clean it up,
When we talk about more 1000c temperature in an engine, it's instantaneous temperature that lasts a few milliseconds
and it is in the middle of the gas, the walls of the culase stand not much more of 150c, the exchange is done with the liquid of cooling,
I do not believe that all the droplets of water vaporize instantaneously, it takes a time to transfer the heat to water. When I worked in steel
when a red billet is watered with water, the water is seen rolling on the hot metal, a small layer of vapor is lodged under the puddle and only a part of it evaporates.

Andre
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laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

disagree




by laurent.delaon » 14/11/05, 18:34

Hello Andre,

I disagree; indeed, the final temperature in the chamber does not matter to us for the development of the tests. On the other hand, the temperature of the steam is the only parameter to which we have access and which influences the system (the engine). It is this parameter that must be taken into account.

It is not a question of measuring on the reactor or too close because it falsifies the measurement. Basically, it would be more like measuring the temperature on a radiator, whereas it is the temperature of the room that counts!

And depending on the performance of the reactor we can have big surprises (ex: copper pipes and stainless steel pipe REFRACTORY 3016 different diameter => different exchange surface etc) ...

So if we manage to measure the temperature of the steam in the pipe just before its admission in the engine is the ideal. For me anyway.

Good for those who want to know the final temperature
(or pressure or volume)
Laplace's law:
Ti initial temp (in ° K)
Tf final temp
Vi initial volume (in m ^ 3)
Vf final volume
Pi initial pressure (in Pa)
Pf final pressure
g = 1.4

on (Ti * Vi) ^ (g-1) = (Tf * Vf) ^ (g-1)
and also
(Pi * Vi) = ^ g (Pf * Vf) ^ g
and worse
(Ti * Pi ^ g ^ (1-g)) = g ^ Tf * Pf (1-g)

I think we can use that for the temperature anyway.
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Other
Pantone engine Researcher
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posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
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by Other » 16/11/05, 00:46

Good evening Laurent
this is a lot of times that I ask the other user doping al, water, and very can tell you what is the right temperature of steam output to have a good performance,
the reason and simple I think that most of the builders do not measure it, I would even say that some does not measure consomation (and I understand them). Despite the measures I am doing, I am currently unable to say whether the steam outlet temperature has a direct influence on the reactor's efficiency.
I know this is around 100c and I have not yet determined whether it is better to have the engine swallow a lot of less hot steam (110c) or little hotter steam (180c), anyway the heat source (exhaust) has its limits we can not absolve more heat than that available.
During many tests my guide was the differrential between exhaust before reactor and after reactor, I was looking for the lowest exhaust temperature in the end, without however falling below 100c for the output steam, it means 3 thermocouples . With experience I keep only 1 thermocouple, it is the steam outlet, the only thing I want to know if the stem becomes wet, currently this is the main problem of the reactor. Obviously there is only to send less water and this regulates part of the problem, but this method is by far the one that gives the most performance,
So depending on the available heat you must put water to the maximum without wetting the stem.
C, is the same principle for the advance of a motor the maximum possible without it clicked (just under the point of detonation) in any condition (it is that the knoc sensor does)

Andre
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