The hydrogen house

[sicetaitsimple]

That's not what your speech implied.:

On the other hand, pressure equipment, it would surprise me that there is a legal vacuum because it stems from a European directive (from 92 if I remember correctly)

You read the royal decree very badly, I quote "This order transposes Directive 2014/68 / EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 15 May 2014 on the harmonization of the laws of the Member States relating to the making available on the market of pressure equipment.

under the link you quote, notice that we only speak of "flammable gases" and nothing particularly in relation to hydrogen
unlike (if I'm not mistaken) France!

Well, if hydrogen is not a flammable gas, I withdraw what I said!

Are you never tired of denying facts that everyone has noticed?

[BaudouinLabrique]

If it was siple,

I always said there was nothing SPECIFIC for hydrogen (at least in Belgium)
and i didn't say anything else
it is you who again cannot read me!

On the other hand, I would be curious to learn what is specific on this subject for France ...

[sicetaitsimple]

Writing it big, bold, and red isn't going to save you from having said nonsense ("I checked, please don't doubt it").

I was talking about regulations on pressurized capacities, with no specific reference to hydrogen, I recopy "They risk being indeed very" concrete "especially since beyond the simple aspect of dimensioning are grafted behind very practical aspects such as compliance with regulations on explosive atmospheres (leaks), certification and periodic control of capacities under pressure,......."

[BaudouinLabrique]

Writing it big, bold, and red isn't going to save you from having said nonsense ("I checked, please don't doubt it").

I was talking about regulations on pressurized capacities, with no specific reference to hydrogen, I recopy "They risk being indeed very" concrete "especially since beyond the simple aspect of dimensioning are grafted behind very practical aspects such as compliance with regulations on explosive atmospheres (leaks), certification and periodic control of capacities under pressure,......."

Butane gas pressure etc. is always under pressure, otherwise we would store too little!
The "capacitys "are therefore always"under pressure"and he does seems there is nothing like specific legalization whether you are at 10 bars or 700 bars.
If you have an info on this subject, I am interested, but nothing found on my side in Belgium.

[sicetaitsimple]

Butane gas pressure etc. is always under pressure, otherwise we would store too little!

Butane (in various household bottles that you can buy) is stored as liquid.

If you want to liquefy your hydrogen, of course it changes everything!

[BaudouinLabrique]

If you want to liquefy your hydrogen, of course it changes everything!

You definitely want to increase my budget!
However, you are aware that to liquefy hydrogen you have to cool it to -252,87 °
After verification, my freezer can only go down to -28 ° !!!

On the other hand, I would not want the neighborhood to imagine that I am building an Ariane type rocket!


Come on, a little humor once!

It is the story of a Belgian who goes to Kourou in Guyana to see the Ariane rocket take off;
once it takes off, he goes to the reception to ask where he could find a souvenir for his family.

The hostess offers him several items: a reduced model of Ariane, an Ariane T-Shirt ... But all these items do not please our guy, the hostess offers to sell him a barrel of rocket oil . The man agrees by asking for additional stickers.

When he got home, he put the was on the fireplace. In the evening, his wife offers him fries for dinner. Nothing more normal...
However, our little guy finds them an aftertaste:
- POUAH! But what did you do in there Bobonne? !! ???
- Well I had more peanut oil so I took the barrel on the chem ...
- WHAT! It's a rocket oil barrel! I'm calling the doctor right away. (.... bitch!)
The doctor, after listening to the whole story, replies that there is nothing he can do, that he has to wait until he and his wife have symptoms ...

A few hours later, at night, the man reminds:
- Doctor, doctor! The symptom just arrived, me and my wife, we farted. What should I do ?
- You call me for making winds. ARE YOU KIDDING ME ??!!
- YES BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN LIEGE AND WE CALL YOU FROM BARCELONA !!!

[sicetaitsimple]

What is funny ......

[BaudouinLabrique]

I took advantage of the existing and more specific topic on solar hydrogen to go further on my questioning about my hydrogen equipment project.

It is HERE

[sicetaitsimple]

I took advantage of the existing and more specific topic on solar hydrogen to go further on my questioning about my hydrogen equipment project.

It is HERE

There is an effort, but the best would have been to copy / paste it!

[sicetaitsimple]

Come on, I'm doing it for you!

Here is, more prosaically, another project of valorization of the solar energy (photovoltaic) in hydrogen and for a residential site


Having already returned my old house (> 50 years) to positive energy (water, electricity and heating), I plan to switch to hydrogen production to try to disconnect from the network (in Belgium, the network serves battery, via the counter which turns backwards). (Cf. [url = http: www.retrouversonnord.be/dossier_H2Net.doc] Summary file [/ url])

Probable choice of system: the Solenco Power Box (SPB - Solvay patent, Belgium); the designer, Dr Vandenborre, announces that his SBP (Solenco Power Box) announces that this makes it possible to produce hydrogen (41% total cycle efficiency) when there is surplus electricity and to remake l electricity when we are lacking and this in an automatic way, the residual heat (54%) being valued, the total loss would only be 5%.
The SPB would be the first system of this type existing at least in Europe.

Thank you for telling me what you think (by remaining as constructive as possible)

It is therefore impossible to estimate the duration of such cycles that will occur each day, but an estimate can be made as follows.


EVALUATION :

In what follows, I take into account the figures for the past period which ran from December 1, 2016 to December 5, 2017. Everything is therefore conditional. Due to the numerous cycles of the CEP throughout the year (mainly between November and March), it is not possible to determine them in advance, since it depends on the cycles of sunshine captured by the photovoltaic tracker (tracker of 45m² of capture surface) and which can be very short (less than a minute) to a maximum of 11 hours per day (as at present: nearly 10 hours per day and production records for such a month: 70kWh or> 7,1 Wh / Wc on the only Sunday February 25)
([url = http: www.retrouversonnord.be/Copie_de_Stat_Prod_Cons_BL_2015-version_25-7-2015.xls] Here are the statements of production / consumption] [/ url]

Overall two periods were determined to facilitate the calculation.
I hope my calculations are accurate!

NB In what follows CEP = electrolyser / hydrogen fuel cell pair

Period electrolyser: it will start therefore the first time the production of hydrogen (via the work of the electrolyser) from mid-March, that is to say when the electricity production begins to exceed the power consumption and to arrive at a balance to be produced of approximately 3.650 kWh (good year or year, average production bonus score currently reached at the beginning of December and corresponding to the current average negative score of the ORES index).
It must be taken into account that during this period of time, the residual heat of the electrolyser could perhaps be used to slightly boost the COP of the heat pump (PAC). If it is not technically possible, this heat loss is then likely to be found in the non-recoverable 5%.
NB The CEP would indeed have 95% total efficiency: electricity> hydrogen> electricity + recovered waste heat.

Fuel cell period: Then, at the beginning of December, when the fuel cell will relay the electrolyser (since the electricity consumption then starts to exceed the electricity production), it will produce hydrogen and much of the heat which strongly boosts the COP. of the CAP, will reduce its consumption and thus be able to use the kWh saved for the work of the CEP.

Here is how the production / consumption figures are articulated (per year).

The total electricity that may have been produced via the hydrogen produced will therefore have to be (year to year) about 3.650 kWh.
Given the loss of 59% to be able to produce these 3.650 kWh, the CEP will therefore have to consume around 8.900 kWh (it will in fact only produce 41% of this electricity received) out of the 11.500 kWh produced. In these 59%, are the 54% of heat production of the CEP and which therefore corresponds to 4.800 kWh, which will then benefit the CAP: as a result, it will then save nearly 70% of its consumption which will then be reduced. at 2.200 kWh (> 7.000 - 4.800); moreover, it will prolong its lifespan accordingly.
As a reminder, this saving will offset almost all the loss of 54% CEP in the form of heat.

What will in fact only need to produce more electricity (via various optimizations) amounts to around 1.200 kWh and therefore a little more than 10% of current production: 5% as planned in the CEP cycle + various losses estimated at 5% (it will indeed be necessary to add this small additional loss due to the equipment which will be necessary to transfer the calories produced by the CEP to the CAP - see next paragraph).
In such conditions and to drastically limit losses, only a heat exchanger (buffer tank) performance can be inserted between the CEP and the PAC.

Note

1 ° It will be necessary to set the temperature of exit of the brine heated up to 20 ° maximum (according to the technical limits of work of the CAP).

2 ° The heat of the surplus CEP (after passing through the heat exchanger) can then be prioritized for heating (temperature range between 35 ° 45 °)

3 ° If there are still calories, they can be reinjected into the return circuit (to the ground) of the brine via a solenoid valve controlled by a thermostat and a small circulators: so that in part can be recovered in the water of the brine inlet circuit when the heat pump is running.

The losses of the transfer of calories will then be limited in particular thanks to the over-insulation of the additional circuits as well as of the heat exchanger, in the manner of what has already been practiced for the boiler and the buffer tank.


Hydrogen storage:

The fuel cell will therefore have to produce 3.650 kWh and which will have to have a sufficient storage capacity with a comfortable reserve taking into account that the annual production can be higher than what was price here in account (the previous annual period).

According to the calculation that was made for the Solenco Power Box (°), 12 cylinders of hydrogen compressed to 200bars can produce 485kWh, which gives 40,417 kWh per cylinder.
Under such conditions, I would need 90 (!) Cylinders of this type and therefore more than> 7 units (like the one shown in the photo), which would take up a space of 19m by 0,74 or even 8,5m by 1,5 , XNUMXm !!!
Certainly, the risk of leaks is multiplied by 90!
So you have to find another storage solution.

Other (theoretical) storage solutions (°),
- to 1bar: 12.400 m³ !!!
- 75 bars: 166 m³ (8,5 tank m long if 2,5 m diameter)
- to 350bars: 36 m³ (3 tank m long if diameter of 2 m)
- at 700bars: 18 m³ (3 tank m long x diameter of 1m)

but are there bottles other than those at 200 bars to reduce the risk of leaks?
I interviewed McPhy by email to inform me about the solid storage system.
On its site, McPhy announces that it is a "completely reversible system (storage / destocking)" and "perfectly adapted to fluctuations in renewable energies (absorbs variations in hydrogen production from the electrolyser").

° At a pressure of 200 bars, a 0,9m²H can produce 485kWh (see photo), which therefore gives an equivalent of 180m³H at 1 bar,
and therefore 2,695 kWh (485 divided by 180)

Thanks for your help !