small collective heating modification notice

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
SG70
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 1
Registration: 10/12/16, 21:26
x 1

small collective heating modification notice




by SG70 » 10/12/16, 23:06

Hello,

I am on a big project of renovation of a mill in Franche Comte which has the peculiarity of having a part of the building dedicated to the rental, 8 apartments of 60 m² each all classified C (133kWh ep / m².an) on the DPE (for what that's worth ...) volume to heat with the ladle 1000 m3 (part in roofing)

For the moment we are on an aging oil boiler (we consume with ECS about 6000l / year) but the existing installation does not suit us for 4 reasons:
1 - The presence of a tank of 3000 l fuel in the mill while we are on the banks of the river (the Ognon for those who know) in a flood zone on a porous subsoil (alluvium) makes me flipper, the less fuel leak hello ecological damage ...
2 - The fuel it stinks ... (admittedly purely subjective as opinion)
3 - The heating circuit although it is in parallel is badly done because the pipes are inaccessible (thus impossible to modify easily) or the heating loads are roughly divided by dividing them by 8 which penalizes the tenants responsible relative to the others (not big ones who have the windows open in the winter heating to bottom to clopper without smelling their apartments and they clop up a lot and long, see those who open to ventilate then go on extended weekend forgetting to close while he do -7 at night ... anyway ...)
4 - The fuel it stinks ... (I know I'm repeating myself ...)

So we will change the whole installation this summer, basically:
- We keep the radiators in each apartment but we redo all the plumbing passing the new pipes by the DRC (the apartments are at 1er 2eme and 3eme floor, the DRC is available on the entire surface of the building)
- We change the heating mode by switching to wood (log or pellet) with accumulation.
- we do for each apartment an independent circuit (there is between 2 3 radiator per apartment according to their arrangement but the cumulative power is substantially constant at 2000W per apartment) with a power meter for each apartment (ultrasonic volumetric probe with plug temperature in and out.
- We already have the ECS produced by the boiler room (a balloon of 300l) with an ECS meter per apartment so we keep it, we just change the hot and cold water meters instead to group for each apartment the three cold water meters, DHW, and heating in the same place)
- Keep the heating circuit charge pump (a WILO 25/6 in 1 ") which seems to be sufficient (it is generally in position 2)
So much for the "decor" ...

But at this stage I am in metaphysical questions about the design of the new installation since I have not been on the subject for a long time and that it is not in itself my profession either (heating engineer I mean)

So we go for the moment on the following installation (see "beautiful" drawing, sorry it is in English, a habit with me):

HWHS.png
HWHS.png (26.03 Kio) Accessed 7727 times


- A wood log or pellet boiler with an output of approximately 35 kW (the fuel boiler is 40 kW in the existing one) with a Wilo Star RS 26/5 charge pump on the return circuit ("Boiler Pump") and a 3-way valve ("Boiler 3 Way Valve") whose role is to keep the return temperature above 50 ° C (the aim being to avoid condensation by raising the boiler to temperature as quickly as possible)
- Two 3000 l storage tanks with a valve system ("V1" and "V2") allowing you to either work on a single tank in mid-season when needs are low ("V1" open "V2" closed) or with the 2 connected in series ("V1" closed "V2" open).
- A distribution circuit (horizontal) which serves the 8 apartments (for the sake of simplification of the diagram the small yellow squares marked "C" represent the probe and meter valves for each apartment, for information we are on diameter 28 on this part with a tapping in 18 for each apartment) with a three-way valve ("Circuit 3 Way Valve") and a Wilo Star RS 26/5 charge pump ("Circuit Pump") on the outgoing circuit, the purpose of the valve is to regulate the flow temperature (heating at a constant temperature of 70 ° C whatever the flow rate, each radiator is already equipped with a thermostatic valve) and a differential valve for the improbable case where all the valves of all the radiators are closed ... 2.5 kg / cm² max (delta between flow pressure and return pressure)
- A circuit to supply the DHW exchanger with a Wilo Star RS 25/2 charge pump ("Hot Water Tank Pump") and a non-return valve ("One Way Valve") to prevent the pump from " Circuit Pump "or" Boiler Pump "is on while the" Hot water Tank Pump "is off, there is reverse circulation which bypasses the storage tanks via the DHW exchanger

At the level of regulations:

Choice of manual valves "V1" and "V2".

For the "Boiler Pump" and its associated three-way valve "Boiler 3 Way Valve":
- If boiler (probable) wood logs the loading is manual thus enslavement of the pump by the temperature of the fumes?
- If pellet boiler (automatic start therefore) servo the boiler and the pump to a temperature sensor on the storage tank with start-up when the last ¼ of the tank falls below 50 ° C?
In all cases, control of the "Boiler 3 Way valve" by measuring the temperature just after the "Boiler Pump"

For the "Circuit Pump" and its associated 3-way valve "Circuit 3-Way Valve", there is a system on the existing installation which starts the pump as soon as it is in winter mode and which controls a 4-way valve (at the place of the three ways provided) depending on the outside temperature (basically make it cold it turns make it hot it stops ... it does not break three legs of a duck either) and the going temperature of the heating circuit, we was simply thinking of keeping the management of the pump in summer / winter mode (roughly manual on / off) and managing the three-way valve by a temperature sensor on the outgoing circuit just after the charge pump to maintain a constant temperature of 70 ° C (high temperature heating ... no choice otherwise you have to change all the radiators in addition and there is no room ...)

For the simple DHW pump start-up as soon as the temperature of the DHW tank sensor (last 1 / 3 of the tank) falls below a certain value (on the scale 60 ° C)

In summer and mid season operating on a single storage tank, the cold period doubles the storage volume by engaging the second balloon in series.

Does the installation seem good to you?
1 x
LOGIC12
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 116
Registration: 28/01/08, 05:41
Location: twelve o'clock Pyrenees
x 5

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by LOGIC12 » 13/02/17, 09:55

Hello, You will not really empower tenants with a collective heating. In addition, if you have a bad pay, it will be heated free.

We have to get all that out, super well isolate the building, without forgetting the ventilation so that people do not complain of "condensation and moldsuuuuuures"
and if the housing is not too big, either electric heaters or small PAC AIR / AIR super economic for each housing (basically reversible air conditioning inverter.).

And it is necessary that each one has its electric meter individual so as not to have concern.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by chatelot16 » 13/02/17, 20:50

what is the yellow square with a C?

if it's a heat meter it's perfect, it makes it possible to charge each user according to what he consumes and to motivate him to save money.

why big buffer balloon? a balloon seems useful when the boiler is unable to adapt as needed like a boiler to log ... it seems to me that the pellet boilers modulate well their power

the problem of the heat meter is serious: it is the right solution but in France the dealer of heating equipment does not want to sell at a reasonable price: always sold horribly too expensive ... as if the right solution was undesirable
0 x
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by dede2002 » 14/02/17, 12:34

Hi Chatelot,

I had the same thought as you, the individual counters are well indicated in the description.

Here a "reliable" energy meter costs 400 fr-euro, to measure the flow and the delta t °, and calculate ...

The 6000 liters of buffer can be heated by solar panels extra, otherwise it's a lot for a log boiler, it might be a few days ahead.
0 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
x 56

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by lilian07 » 14/02/17, 21:10

Hi,
We must certainly see in a first if insulation is not possible but given the tenants it seems difficult from the inside and given the ranking of the building impossible from the outside.
All seems to me well dimensioned in view of the power engaged by the fuel boiler and consumption m2 / year.
I would say that the breakdown per tenant is a good idea but that the choice of a wood-log boiler is a constraint in this context because who will be responsible for supplying the boiler? Hardly possible in my opinion and in the event of the owner's presence it is a lot of load to handle (around 100 kg of wood in winter is one load per day ...)
If a storage room is better to use a boiler wafer (shredded wood) less expensive than the pellet boiler on the purchase and on the cost of wood. However, you need 2200 Kwh / m3 square of shredded wood (in your case a room accessible by truck collocated to the 27 m3 storage boilers.
The pellet boiler is more expensive, requires a little less storage space and a little less maintenance.
In your case I will do in order of priority:
1) insulation if possible
2) I will keep the boiler fuel with possibly a development of buffer tank coupled with solar thermal and storytellers individual heating per apartment.
3) When the fuel boiler releases a boiler change for wood.
4) possibly PAC water - water (river) instead of source air-to-air heat pumps with low temperature transmitter to reduce the emission temperature to 40 ° while keeping the possibility of a coupling to the thermal sensors (always with counter individual)

Fuel is not very expensive today and when you isolate a little this system remains in the competition.
Good luck for the installation it is never easy especially in your case with tenant.
0 x
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by dede2002 » 15/02/17, 14:46

SG70 wrote:...
3 - The heating circuit although it is in parallel is badly done because the pipes are inaccessible (thus impossible to modify easily) or the heating loads are roughly divided by dividing them by 8 which penalizes the tenants responsible relative to the others (not big ones who have the windows open in the winter heating to bottom to clopper without smelling their apartments and they clop up a lot and long, see those who open to ventilate then go on extended weekend forgetting to close while he do -7 at night ... anyway ...)
.


Hello,

If the existing piping is still solid, I would not change it, it's a lot of expense and work, in addition to 8 counters, just to spread the costs ...

Eventually, it would be easier to put switches on the windows to close the radiators. : Wink:

I also have tenants, and the biggest problems I've encountered is with tenants who never opened the windows ...
0 x
LOGIC12
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 116
Registration: 28/01/08, 05:41
Location: twelve o'clock Pyrenees
x 5

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by LOGIC12 » 18/11/17, 06:36

hello, the problem is that another type of heating (wood or pellets) will be binding on the owner. Even if he is young and in good health, he will soon be fed up. And if he gets older and can no longer insure, it will become problematic ... If you want to sell, the work imposed by this kind of heating will dissuade potential buyers.

It is certain that with oil, it is less restrictive, and one can always install another tank where it is not likely to bathe in water, and either remove the other tank, or have it empty completely. and clean it so that it does not risk anything, and it can be filled with pebbles for example.
0 x
PVresistif
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 163
Registration: 26/02/18, 12:44
x 36

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by PVresistif » 25/05/18, 11:25

2 remarks based on experience in residence with collective heating and hot water:
1) it is stupid and above all contemptuous to install meters on a collective heating because what will happen: those who work during the day or are absent at the weekend will lower their heating and so it will be those who are forced to stay and therefore constantly heat which will pay for the others because an unheated apartment "pumps" the heat from the apartment next door; thus you will sanction retirees, often those who are the poorest; really a great "collective" idea, you take from the poor to give to the rich in a way
I was able to observe this in a collective residence without counting (ouf) or when starting it was always the first retirees to ask to start the heating.
2) the collective hot water must have a count on it but it is necessary to know that in collective installations the fact even to centralize the production is a disaster in term of yield seen the length of the pipes which generate losses very important in water and energy
the ideal is of course the centralized production in each apartment by an electric water heater, it is by far the least expensive solution at all points of view but it is the best solution for the trustee and for the companies; it is the same for the state which pumps 20% of VAT on the investment as well as on the overconsumption due to the losses (approximately the double of energy, because 50% easy losses ...)
You are the "perfect students" of liberalism which consists in charging a maximum and polluting the planet a maximum, it goes hand in hand ... and in addition you are totally (voluntarily I think?) Ignore the problems of theft of heat. 'one apartment to another!
You are in the air of the time ....... Hah really what social conscience, what taking into account of the human aspect ....
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by chatelot16 » 25/05/18, 13:10

a reasonable solution must be found between the complete absence of a heat meter that allows anyone to open their windows and waste heat ... and the payment entirely to the heat meter which allows some to be heated for free by neighbors in just a little lower temperature

the sensible solution is to share the price of the heating in 2 part ... a part distributed with the meter, and a part distributed according to the surfaces, so that the one who lets himself be heated by the neighbors still pays in a reasonable way

one who is content with a low temperature is not open to criticism! that's the purpose of the heat meter! motivate the economy ... I think 19 ° C is way too much ... at home I live very well with 10 ° C in winters
1 x
dirk pitt
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2081
Registration: 10/01/08, 14:16
Location: isere
x 68

Re: small collective heating modification Review




by dirk pitt » 27/05/18, 14:26

thank you chatelot,
a little common sense and compromise, it's still better that extremism has everything punctuated with ya ka and "he's stupid ..."
0 x
Image
Click my signature

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : Google Adsense [Bot] and 413 guests