anti-renewables heat pump? Disadvantages and advantages

[RV45]

Considering nuclear electricity in France, when a Cherno6fukushima occurs in France (inevitable sooner or later because men are not infallible in perpetuity) with an entire region, emptied of its inhabitants, incultivable, and nuclear electricity completely stopped, as in Japan today, in a few days, what will you do with your heat pump that has become useless ????

The true heating solution is of the type www.dlsc.ca discussed here, perpetual, which consumes nothing, which replaces all nuclear and thermal, without CO2.

You got scammed, like me, because the heat pump consumes energy, maintenance, replacement given its limited lifespan, etc. in addition to its total lack without electricity.

The important thing is not what I am going to do, but what you did yourself in your house.

On my side I always have my oil boiler, and especially my solar system and my Jotul hair and especially I produce my electricity in part and I can go up to 9kVa if necessary.

[Barou456]

Hello,

By reading you I find it hard to form an opinion on the usefulness of a heat pump. Ideally, I would like to reduce my heating consumption in my accommodation located in a senior service residence. But I also tell myself that it can be a good way to have an air conditioning in the summer. It could make a two in one but that said, I'm not sure that the air conditioning will reduce my bills in the long run, quite the contrary.
I also wanted to have your opinion from an ecological point of view. Is the heat pump really ecological?

[raymon]

I talked about my reversible air conditioning there:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/avis-clima ... 12394.html
I would put a damper today by saying it may not be worth investing as much, a slightly cheaper air conditioning may be more judicious. But in frost it is better to have an additional wood stove. especially in the upper Doubs!
Otherwise heating a room of 45m2 with 50 -60 euros per year is reasonable ...

[torrent sites]

Hello everybody.

I did not read all the pages of the subject but I bring you my personal experience:
- the installation dates from 2007 with a water-water cap in horizontal geothermal energy with a heated floor at all levels
- the house is made ~ 135m²
- my vegetable patch is right on top of the sensors

at the cost of installation: tax credit deducted at the time (4000 € at the time because not married ), installation of outdoor sensors with earthworks + complete indoor installation ~ 12000 €
I did not put additional resistance and did not take an inverter for the air conditioning (my screed being anhydride it is not recommended).

in terms of maintenance of the beast, I do every two years a purge of the heating floor (it is related to the type of pipe and not to the cap) and checks the antifreeze of the refrigerant. For now I am at 0 € each, etc. (provided it lasts).

for now I have no problem with the vegetable garden, the vegetables are growing very well. I read on a previous post ground worries which retracts around the external sensors. I have a very clayey earth (so not necessarily the most suitable for this type of installation), but for the moment I have not noticed anything like it (the pump does not turn more than at the beginning) by cons j have taken care to respect the steps between the sensors.

At the annual cost level:
I am "all electric", that is to say, electric water heater, induction hob + electric oven. to know also that I have two aquariums where the lighting runs for ten hours a day and have not yet switched to LED ramps so it consumes a little . apart from these elements the rest is standard (TV, etc.)
In 2016 I got a little less than 1300 € bill.
To know that at the beginning, so before 2010 I turned between 1000 and 1100 € a year, but along the way joined the 2 aquariums and the edf increases

Note that I also have an extra wood stove with which I consume, when the harsh winters and the humidity is there ~ 4stères. Wood costs me nothing (I'm doing well for now ) and is of high quality (beech, oak and dry hornbeam).
The stove, I also wanted it because in the event of a power outage that lasts, I wanted something allowing us to have a minimum of comfort. He must be around twenty years old, so it is not the most efficient in terms of yield but it does the job.

This also allows me to leave the heat pump low enough in t ° (18 °) and to compensate. If I had to buy it, the prices here, when we are doing well, vary from 45 € for the cheapest to 65 € per stere (always "quality" wood, cut into 33cm logs). To shape the price is less but it would be necessary to calculate the cost of the machines etc.

So that comes back to ~ 1500 € (if I buy the finished wood).

For my part, for the moment this heating mode suits me quite well.
There are two black dots that annoy me a little, but for the moment it is not prohibitive at my level:
- for the vegetable garden ok, but impossible to plant trees above the collectors
- be too dependent on the EDF network

At the time, I did research on all types of common heaters that we could find (wood, pellets, fuel, heat of all kinds, etc.) and I found that the water / water heat was the most adapted to my case. For the moment I will not go back. The day the cap drops I would start my research again and by then there may be better.

I am not a fervent defender of geothermal energy, but, if we are dealing with a correct and professional heating engineer this can be a good alternative to other heating methods

[chatelot16]

why so much hatred for heat pumps? it's still better than simple electric heating!

the short lifespan of current heat pumps is not a defect in the heat pump principle, just a defect in the material that the CONsomation company sells ... it would be entirely possible to build sustainable heat pumps, and with COP far superior to what exists ... but we would need a new manufacturer who is not motivated only by swindling customers ... finally a new manufacturer needs finance so if he borrows from a bank it is the bank which forces him to swindle customers to reimburse

to make good material there is not much to invent in technical solution ... it is in financing method that everything remains to be invented ... if the customers wanted to participate financially in the construction of useful thing we could move forward ... instead of letting the middleman take advantage of the situation to make shit

burning gas or fuel oil to make heat only is nonsense ... if the right equipment were available it would be more efficient to consume gas or fuel oil to run a cogeneration generator, take advantage of the heat and sell electricity to edf, to supply those who prefer heat pumps!

the ecolo want electric car while the current battery is still too expensive to be profitable ... replacing fuel boilers by generators with cogeneration is much easier ... there is no technical problem to build the equipment ... the only thing missing is that edf buys the electricity produced at a normal price without prohibitive installation costs ... there is especially no need for subsidized purchase price as for the photovoltaic ... a purchase price simply a little lower than the sale price, because any merchant needs a margin ...

for me the future of heating is expensive cogeneration for one and heat pump for others

[Bardal]

Yes, it is certain that this hatred has something incomprehensible, not very rational ...
These are machines, no more expensive and no more complex than others, to which we supply 1 kWh and which make you 4 or 5 ... And these would be evil machines, to be avoided carefully and definitively ... Reasoning which leaves me amazed.

I personally have a heating installation by PAC dating from 1979 (at the time, I had a lot of trouble to find an installer likely to make an installation in accordance with what I wanted), so from the very beginning of this type of heating . My first cap, from a brand not particularly renowned for its longevity, lasted 20 years. the failure was completely repairable (leak on copper pipe in the exchanger), but, the technology having evolved in the meantime, I deemed the craft obsolete. I gained 1 point of cop there, but the house had grown, passing from 120 m2 to 170. I have heated it for about 5000 kWh per year, 6000 now. The 2ème pac begins its 19ème year without no technical boredom and no professional maintenance (I just clean 2 filters once a year).

After forty years of experimentation, my conclusions:

- these machines are reliable, subject to a properly designed and carried out installation (plumbers generally know nothing about it, unless adequate, rare training), and require very little maintenance.
- I heated myself for 20 years to less than 500 € / year for 120 m2 correctly isolated for the time, in the Center region; better still, my drilling (the water is at 3 m) provided me the summer approximately 200 m3 free for watering, that is a saving of approximately 300 €; the additional cost of the installation, versus fuel or LPG, was amortized over a few years (6 or 7).
- the only drawbacks, in my opinion, are a noise from the machine a little higher than that of an oil boiler, and the obligation to be in three-phase ...

Today, heat pumps have evolved enormously, and I would no longer take the aquathermy option, simple aerothermal energy guaranteeing normal operation, without extra heat, up to temperatures of -15 ° C. Common COPs now exceed 5. The questions of noise, regulation, reliability, etc. have evolved favorably, and have appeared to be skilled craftsmen in this field (but there are also recently converted margoulins ...). Therefore...

In a new house (therefore rt2012 at least), there are air-water heat pumps of famous brands for the same price as a condensing boiler, or almost ... Better still, you can easily heat a rt2012 house of a hundred m2 with a simple air-to-air cap for less than 2000 € installed. In both cases, we will heat for a hundred euros per year, without any additional costs, and without any subjection (no fuel, no sweeping, no compulsory maintenance, no special subscription). Is there competition? The only conceivable would be a more expensive pellet stove installed, and with some drawbacks.

So what can justify such hatred? Does it work with electricity? And so, a vacuum cleaner too, that's not why we only have brooms ... Can you imagine a society without electricity?
Does this increase the peak consumption in winter? that is not true (the person responsible for the peak of 19 h is the start-up of equipment on return from work, for lunch); on the other hand, it increases winter consumption (but 4 or 5 times less than a convector).

Oh, a little icing on the cake:
- there are 8 "all electric" homes in France, responsible for the winter overconsumption ...
- suppose that each of these dwellings is equipped with an air-air cap at 2000 € for the only living space; that would save ipso facto approximately 2 kW of call of power by housing, that is, in total, 16 GW of power ... Let us put 11 or 12 GW, for the proliferation and the margin of safety. 12 GW is the power of 12 nuclear units, which could be deleted (or used for something else) ... It is something quite different from low-consumption light bulbs, isn't it? Incidentally (but there is not only money in life), 2000 €, this would be reimbursed in 2 or 3 years by saving heating. And 2000 € by 8 million, it's never been 16 billion €, Not even 3 years of CSPE ...

This should appeal to anti-nuclear activists, right? ... Finally, if they are a little rational ...

ps The energy transferred by a heat pump, is it solar energy, stored in ambient air, water or soil? I'm not wrong ?

Come on, have a nice day by the wood fire ... Here it is -3 ° C (outside).

[sicetaitsimple]

generators with cogeneration is much easier ... there is no technical problem to build the equipment ... the only thing missing is that edf buys the electricity produced at a normal rate without any costs d prohibitive installation ... there is especially no need for subsidized purchase price as for photovoltaics ... a purchase price simply a little lower than the sale price, because any merchant needs a margin ...

That's the theory, but it would be interesting if you could give us an idea of ​​the electricity purchase price that would be necessary using a small numerical example.

[chatelot16]

Today, heat pumps have evolved enormously, and I would no longer take the aquathermy option, simple aerothermal energy guaranteeing normal operation, without extra heat, up to temperatures of -15 ° C. Common COPs now exceed 5.

especially not: the cop strongly depends on the cold temperature ... with -15 ° it will never do 15 ... it will just do better than 1!

with your drilling it gives you a constant cold source so the cop does not decrease when it is cold so when there is the most need

the water / water heat pumps are generally more durable because they are mounted sheltered from the weather and the gas circuit does not come out of the heat pump ... the air heat pumps are more fragile with the compressor outside and the circuit gas in the house

alas the water / water caps are generally more expensive

[Christophe]

why so much hatred for heat pumps? it's still better than simple electric heating!

Yes we can always do better than (the) worst

In primary energy, heat pumps are not terrible ... moreover, the marketing campaigns of the time claimed that it was "free and clean" energy, these two arguments are completely false!

This is where these counter arguments against the PACs started ...

[torrent sites]

moreover, the marketing campaigns of the time proclaimed that it was "free and clean" energy, these 2 arguments are completely false!

This is not wrong, in fact the air or the heat in the basement are for the moment free and "clean". On the other hand, they just forgot to talk about the energies which were used to make the bousin turn.

At the same time every day there are people who are fooled by free diagnostics for energy savings, etc ... There must still be plenty of non-profit associations in these areas

We are fortunate to have a lot of means of communication to inquire (at one time there was the paper newspaper and worse that's all), therefore the consumers that we are must check a minimum the churns sold by some unscrupulous salespeople