The future will pass you it with biomass?

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moinsdewatt
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by moinsdewatt » 10/11/17, 18:07

sicetaitsimple wrote:You will allow me to doubt it, not that I am fundamentally anti-nuclear, but because I think it would just be impossible to develop a new nuclear project in France under economically acceptable conditions. Too long, too expensive, too risky (in terms of "project" risks, I am not talking about "safety" risk).


The English do it well for 2 EPR at Hinkley Point. The work began almost a year ago.
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by sicetaitsimple » 10/11/17, 18:34

moinsdewatt wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:You will allow me to doubt it, not that I am fundamentally anti-nuclear, but because I think it would just be impossible to develop a new nuclear project in France under economically acceptable conditions. Too long, too expensive, too risky (in terms of "project" risks, I am not talking about "safety" risk).


The English do it well for 2 EPR at Hinkley Point. The work began almost a year ago.


Yes. And less than a year after the start of work, in July this year, EDF announces an additional cost of about 2 billion euros and a delay estimated at 15 months for the first unit ...

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html

Anecdotally, I would remind you that Mr. de Rivaz, the boss of EDF Energy, the English subsidiary of EDF, declared around 2006 or 2007 "at Christmas 2017 the English will cook their turkeys with Hinkley Point electricity". When is Christmas 2017?
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by moinsdewatt » 18/11/17, 20:06

Biomass in XXL version:

In Gardanne, RBL-REI has built the largest biomass platform in France

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View of the Curvoduc ™ connecting the Mounine to the power plant, photo RBL-REI

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The Curvoduc ™ brings the chips produced on the milling site of the Mounine to 800m of the boiler room, photo RBL-REI

The feeding of the biomass boiler of PR4, with a power of 400 MWth, requires to receive, prepare, store and convey 850 000 tons of wood per year. This volume is equivalent to that of a small paper mill, which is not extraordinary in terms of dimensions for an industrial project. This volume is divided into four categories of products, hereinafter listed with the quantities that will eventually pass each year through the installation:

- 505 000 tons of wood chips,
- 130 000 tons of round wood shredding on site,
- 130 000 tonnes of crushed green waste,
- 85 000 of A and B Class A Reclaimed Wood Crushed Wood.

Since the plant has to work 7500 hours per year, the theoretical average equipment throughput is 113 tons of wood per hour, ie 2720 tons or 110 trucks per day. Of course for a whole series of reasons, the equipment does not all work 24 h / 24 and on many positions larger sizing has been done by RBL-REI to group these flows on a smaller number of working hours. Thus, the wood receiving stations have been sized to accommodate up to 240 trucks per day (in practice it is maximum 140) and conveyor chains to be able to transport up to 3200 m³ per hour, for some, while the boiler only consumes between 350 at 450 m³ / h per hour. These over-sizing, of course, also serve to manage a whole series of crisis situations, anticipated situations such as localized breakdowns, with each envisaged case of a planned and dimensioned fallback solution.

The round wooded area of ​​Mounine

For the reception, measurement, storage, and shredding of roundwood, RBL-REI has equipped the entire Mounine Timber Park, a park of 7 ha located next to the plant. Timber trucks are received with weighing and sampling on the logs by sampling with a fixed chainsaw. This stock of buffer wood, which amounts to 30 000 tons, does not stay long at the Mounine and flows in a permanent bearing to keep the freshness and the calorific value of the wood.

The logs are then taken by shovel to pass to the mill. The grinding is carried out in a closed building so as to protect the equipment, but also to confine the noise and to treat the working air by suction and dedusting.

Image
The grinding platform for round wood is equipped with a SAALASTI grinder, photo RBL-REI

At the end of the mill, the wood is conveyed directly to the boiler room or stacked on a paved area by a polar storer and forming a bean stock of 5000 m³ capacity. From there, as needed, platelets made in P63 size are taken from the magazine and dumped into a hopper that feeds a Curvoduc ™ curved conveyor, in elevation for transfer to the plant.

.........................

https://www.bioenergie-promotion.fr/535 ... de-france/
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moinsdewatt
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by moinsdewatt » 18/11/17, 20:14

French forestry cooperatives demand rapid increase in wood energy projects

Frédéric DOUARD3 October 2017

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Harvest of wood energy in private forest, photo UCFF

Since the launch of the wood energy market in France there is more than 20 years, forestry cooperatives have always been present to meet a new and growing market. They have demonstrated their competence in the mobilization of the resource and are today the leading producer of wood chips in France.

The heat fund, essential tool for the establishment of collective wood energy boiler, is it up to the situation? The answer is NO, the number of projects is historically low.

It does not correspond to the targets set by the public authorities to reach the percentages of renewable energy consumption in 2030.

In addition, the price of fossil fuels greatly hampers the consumption of wood energy. A drop in 30% of the volumes delivered in the second quarter 2017, at the national level, shows that energy companies prefer other low-cost energies.

The immediate consequences are a large deficit of logging as a whole and a loss of direct income for forest owners.

The forestry cooperatives therefore call for an urgent rebalancing of the competitiveness of wood energy. The heat fund, the amount of which must double rapidly, must be used to revive and sustain the use of wood energy.

Forest cooperatives have sufficient resources to respond to markets. They know how to harvest and value it. As a result, forest cooperatives engage in the regular supply of fuelwood if these markets are relaunched very quickly.

Finally, forestry cooperatives strongly encourage the State to actively pursue its investment for a real increase in the consumption of Renewable Energy. Wood is the first of the ENR far ahead of wind, solar or even hydraulics. It is therefore necessary to arrogate the aid on the price differential between fossil energy and wood energy.

Wood is not uncommon, it is valuable for the entire wood forest sector. But it is essential to invest in a thoughtful and balanced way between upstream (mobilization of the resource) and downstream (construction of boiler houses), by encouraging the grouping of forest owners.

With a turnover of 430 millions of euros and 1 000 employees, the Union of French Forest Cooperation is the first economic force of the French private forest. It brings together 19 forestry cooperatives in France which bring together 120 000 forest producers members, manage 2 million hectares of forests, produce 7 millions of m3 of wood per year. Forest cooperatives are the largest producer of wood chips in France (600 000 tonnes / year). www.ucff.asso.fr

https://www.bioenergie-promotion.fr/532 ... s-energie/
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Ahmed » 19/12/17, 19:33

The ecological associations and the natural park which opposed the project of Gardanne ended up giving up and accepting to stop resorting again, with some formal concessions from the operator and especially the threat of the region to suppress their grants ... : roll:
Nothing, therefore, is opposed to the actual start-up of the plant and to the correlative experimental confirmation that industrialization and nature are two antagonistic and incompatible concepts. :(
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by moinsdewatt » 19/12/17, 20:13

Ahmed wrote:The ecological associations and the natural park which opposed the project of Gardanne ended up giving up and accepting to stop resorting again, with some formal concessions from the operator and especially the threat of the region to suppress their grants ... : roll:
Nothing, therefore, is opposed to the actual start-up of the plant and to the correlative experimental confirmation that industrialization and nature are two antagonistic and incompatible concepts. :(


There was no need to complain about coal in Gardannes.
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by chatelot16 » 19/12/17, 20:31

I can not understand this opposition to the gardane biomass plant! there are ecologists who prefer to burn coal? (certainly the same ones who go to war against the wind turbine as don quichote)

in a region where the forest is not valued and where a large area is burned every year simply because it is not maintained!

it is necessary to maintain all the drills, to take wood there to replace coal or oil ... the advantage of the big thermal power station is to accept any quality of crushed wood, even what would not be accepted by any small boiler

in the French Riviera the brushing is considered a compulsory expenditure because what one cuts has no value ... if the milled wood was bought by the big thermal power plant the clearing would not be a cost but an income

of course we should not go to the opposite extreme and cut everything to the complete desert ... Fortunately we are far ... home and around my home I grind wood for my heating and it n There are no worries, it pushes far more than I burn
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Ahmed » 19/12/17, 21:06

The problem is not to burn wood, but to put an industrial dimension in it, which is out of proportion to the capacities of nature. Part of the supply will not be local *, but will come from Spain or Portugal, via eucalyptus plantations that have been substituted for the original forest.
To justify a bad thing by a worse sometimes passes for realism, is to say where we are ... : roll:

* In a way, it's better! The only local scrub, assuming that their harvest is possible, will not be enough, far from it.
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Bardal » 19/12/17, 22:26

Indeed, the question asked by the Gardanne plant is not whether or not to value forest wood, currently largely left to rot on the spot; on this point, I believe that everyone will agree ... The question is how can we best value this resource, without too much harm to the environment, and in acceptable ecological and economic conditions.

The Gardanne power station, although "drying up" all the resource within a radius of 200 km, will be forced to import half of its needs, not only from Spain and Portugal, but even from Brazil, Canada or elsewhere. We can ask ourselves the question of the ecological qualifier attributed to such an approach, especially since the yield of electricity production under these conditions capped at 33% ...

Basically, would the most relevant use of the wood resource not be a local use (heating of dwellings, limited-sized heat network, collective dwellings) in the form of log-wood, chips or pellets? ? Niche market, certainly, but adapted to a reasoned exploitation of the local forest, as an alternative to an industrial exploitation little compatible with the preservation of the natural environments; the final result, in terms of CO2 emissions, would also be more favorable. The same question arises for the use of biomass in Germany (and probably elsewhere).
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by sicetaitsimple » 19/12/17, 22:34

chatelot16 wrote:I can not understand this opposition to the gardane biomass plant! there are ecologists who prefer to burn coal? (certainly the same ones who go to war against the wind turbine as don quichote)

in a region where the forest is not valued and where a large area is burned every year simply because it is not maintained!

it is necessary to maintain all the drills, to take wood there to replace coal or oil ... the advantage of the big thermal power station is to accept any quality of crushed wood, even what would not be accepted by any small boiler

in the French Riviera the brushing is considered a compulsory expenditure because what one cuts has no value ... if the milled wood was bought by the big thermal power plant the clearing would not be a cost but an income

of course we should not go to the opposite extreme and cut everything to the complete desert ... Fortunately we are far ... home and around my home I grind wood for my heating and it n There are no worries, it pushes far more than I burn


There are many reasons to find Gardanne's project a little weak.

We can talk about the very local aspect of supply, not to mention imports that will be a majority at least initially, the supply plan (in the public inquiry file that I had consulted and which must always be available on the internet) went back over Lyon!

But I would rather evoke another point, the economic weakness of the project. Based on continuous operation from 01/01 to 31/12, whatever the electricity needs and its "value" expressed by the market price. At a fixed price which I remember correctly must be around 120 € / MWh, or 3 times the current average price.

This is justifiable though questionable in the case of free and infinite resources such as wind and sun, or waste energy treatment, much less in the case of wood.

As you write "at home and around my house I chop wood for my heating and there is no problem, it grows far more than I burn". That's right, wood must remain "local" and rather reserved for heating, not for making electricity in large purely generating plants with rather poor performance.

Edit: I discovered by posting the post of Bardal ... We agree.
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