Storage of clean energy!

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4

Storage of clean energy!




by the middle » 22/06/11, 11:03

Hello,
You will tell me why again a new post on this subject.
There is plenty of post on the different possibilities.
In fact, (for me), switching from nuk energy, or coal, or gas, to clean energy causes problems of instability of energy production.
These instabilities can be overcome.
As proof, there are plenty of different posts that offer good ideas.
My goal is to synthesize all the ideas, and to propose new ones.
Because there are very good processes not yet proposed, or we spoke so little.
For me, we have to go through a combination of systems; starting with the insulation of houses.
The idea of ​​using the battery capacity of electric cars is to consider, or to study.
At home, I have a dual hour electric meter.
It automatically switches to night.
We can consider a system that will switch automatically in case of overproduction of electricity, (on the network), and which would be injected into private homes, in the form of heating, or charging car batteries ... or other.
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
User avatar
Former Oceano
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 1571
Registration: 04/06/05, 23:10
Location: Lorraine - France
x 1




by Former Oceano » 22/06/11, 12:43

In general, in case of overproduction, EDF stores the energy in the hydraulic dams by pumping in water.

Storage in the home will cause problems: maintenance costs of batteries, rental, availability.

To go in the direction of the ecology, it is necessary to start by lowering its consumption to switch partly then totally towards the renewable energies. This approach can be accompanied by a decentralization of production and losses during transport.

It is not by having a high energy consumption that the transition will occur.
0 x
[MODO Mode = ON]
Zieuter but do not think less ...
Peugeot Ion (VE), KIA Optime PHEV, VAE, no electric motorcycle yet...
Alain G
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 3044
Registration: 03/10/08, 04:24
x 3




by Alain G » 22/06/11, 15:09

Aie Lejuste you take my ideas!

Alain G wrote:Good find Dédé with the nuclear engineer Bernard Laponche who sums up my thoughts on what he calls the Smart Grid which is what I spoke about on a few occasions to eliminate the "peaks" and to manage the network properly!


Glad to not be the only one to have thought about it!

I would also add the possibility of recharging the car to use as a backup power source when production is not enough!

Chrysler had a project in this direction with their RAM pickup truck

: Mrgreen:
0 x
Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 22/06/11, 20:27

It depends on what kind of energy we are talking about?

For electrical energy:
Apart from the batteries already in use, and the turbining up water in the dams.
there is only one "safe" alternative to my knowledge is the production of hydrogen and its storage without risk. The thread already exists:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post204954.html#204954

If it's thermal energy. It can be stored via a fluid in:
- molten sodium;
- concrete blocks;
- a pool or a large boiler;
- in short, in any thermal balloon, as here in the ground:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-e ... 10470.html

(see also the sons on Désertec)
— 
0 x
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 28/06/11, 20:15

Here, there is something new, but I have little information on the net:
(Low temperature solar power plant in Spain).
http://investincotedazur.com/fr/newslet ... ique-solai
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
paotop
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 139
Registration: 15/11/05, 11:35
Location: South West




by paotop » 27/08/11, 09:01

hello, a little "up" for this subject ...

there is also the inertia to store energy, it is a little used process but which is interesting on several levels.
a massive flywheel has inertia that is launched when there is available energy and that restores it later when there is a need, it would smooth the ridges of consos and that's all there is more recyclable unlike a battery.

there are few boxes that work on the subject.

there is a box in France who works on a group of electrogene inertia since 10ans and nobody is too much juice.
marketing is imminent, it's expensive (it's French ..) but the idea is good and the basic principle is simple (so a good source of inspiration ...)

http://www.energiestro.com/fr/index.htm
0 x
I eat less I pollute less, I'm full of water ...
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 27/08/11, 09:36

Well known by me, but too expensive.
Moreover, I have already spoken of it centuries ago.
The idea is good, certainly, and deserves to be recalled.
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 27/08/11, 12:44

to store electricity the best thing currently available is the lead battery

we always say that we should not use car battery, but prefer the traction battery, like elevateur electrique

it was especially true at the time when the car battery had the antimony lead grid, to be solid, but the antimony ended up polishing all the active plom of the battery and limit its lifespan

since a few years, we have replaced antimony with calcium, and lead-calcium batteries have a much better life and become usable in energy storage.

my favorite type of battery is the pure lead electrode battery as its invention by planted: in the first cycle the capacity is almost zero and increases with each cycle of charge: it is the formation ... that we found too much long and expensive before reaching a useful capacity ... and that's why we invented plates of chemical composition imediately effective but much less durable

electric battery training is expensive if it has to be done by the manufacturer, but if it is done by the user it costs nothing ... so I see a battery management system knowing how to mix new elements with low capacity and older items with higher capacity

new low capacity batteries will be trained by participating in useful work so at no cost
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 27/08/11, 13:07

I just did some calculation to encrypt another means of storage: hot water

how much energy is there in water between 80 and 100 ° C?

mass heat 4186 J / kg
/ 3600 = 1.16 Wh / kg

x 20 ° C = 22Wh / kg

it's not bad compared to 40Wh / kg of lead acid batteries, water is still cheaper than lead

except that the heat is not electricity, to make it mechanical energy it is necessary to pass by a thermal engine don the maximum yield of carnot is
1 - Tf / Tc
if we have a cold source at 20 ° C

yield = 1 - 273 + 20/273 + 100 = 0.21 = 21%

this yield seems lamentable, but when you have electricity to store you can use the same thermal machine whose maximum cop will be the opposite of the carnot yield
1 / 0.21 = 4.76

the overall efficiency heat pump heat storage thermal engine at a theoretical maximum of 100% ... of course in reality it will do what it can depending on the quality of realization

but even if we achieve an honorable yield we must not forget that it multiplies by 4.76 the amount of heat to store

it decreases the energy density
22 wh / kg / 4.76 = 4.6 Wh / kg

it's not glorious but it can still be used, especially in a case where the heat pump is already there for another use

the heat pump that everyone criticizes for heating could be modified to be thermodynamically reversible and to store electrical energy!
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 27/08/11, 16:41

If we store the heat underground (concentrated thermal solar) at 300 ° C and higher in underground rock (limestone, granite), we will have with the high temperature a much better yield (for Stirling or turbines) than with water between 20 ° C and 100 ° C, in a large tank, offered by chatelot16, and for less, since each meter of drilling corresponds to 4 to 9m3 of very hot storage (thermal capacity of the rock half that water or 100KWh / m3 thermal, for approximately, between 20 ° C and 380 ° C, and Carnot efficiency max of 50% and real 30%: 30KWh electric per m3) !!

It takes quite large volumes of hot rock (more than 1000m3) but as simple storage at high temperature with drilling it would be worthwhile and looks a bit like geothermal energy on very hot volcanic soil !! Except that the heat of the volcano is solar.
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 282 guests