Storage of clean energy!

[Did67]

Certainly.

But if chatelot got the wrong factor of 3, that's still 0,4 euros per kWh for storage. With in addition, in the case of PV, a production cost of approximately how much ??? Come on 0,25 euro per kWh ???

So the kWh at night (so also in the early evening when the sun has just set, that it is the only one to have set, that all the others turn on ...) would cost 0,6 to 0,7 euros ???

I didn't say it will never work.

I didn't say you shouldn't search.

I said :

a) like that, that is not a solution to the problem on a European scale. Even if it can be in particular situations (isolation).

b) rather than that, storing biomethane and only using PV / wind power during the day, then "turbine" twice as much biomethane at night (+ wind power), seems to me already more playable (cost question) and that we should therefore think about it

c) and of course, smart grid, EV, etc ... and savings ...

[chatelot16]

I planted 3 in reading the power of the installation at 11 million euros

so it makes it three times more expensive per Wh stored

when i say it's not a feat it's not to criticize, it's just to say that battery storage is not as difficult as it is said

a lead type traction battery does not cost more expensive to manufacture than a starter battery ... at the time when there was michelot a small battery manufacturer in angouleme he made small batteries with traction type plates at the same price as starter battery

if traction type batteries are expensive, it's just because they are called solar!

in a lead storage installation the battery tray is eternal! we only change the plates that wear ... and there is only one of the 2 pole that really wears out

the advantage of lead is precisely that it is very easy to recycle on the spot ... and a lead recycling workshop justified by a large electrical storage plant can be made even more profitable by recycling lead batteries from all over the region. .. instead of sending them back to China

[I Citro]

the advantage of lead is precisely that it is very easy to recycle on the spot ... and a lead recycling workshop justified by a large electrical storage plant can be made even more profitable by recycling lead batteries from all over the region. .. instead of sending them back to China

Provided they are approved on environmental quality.
I do not know the details of the recycling / regeneration process for lead / antimony batteries.

[I Citro]

b) rather than that, storing biomethane and only using PV / wind power during the day, then "turbine" twice as much biomethane at night (+ wind power), seems to me already more playable (cost question) and that we should therefore think about it

c) and of course, smart grid, EV, etc ... and savings ...

I'm not sure that the overall performance and cost of biomethane is better.

Wind / PV storage near the production site is, in my view, essential to smooth production and manage the installations (control and excitation current of the wind turbine, if necessary, cleaning and cooling of PV) but especially to continue to produce, even weakly in case of cloudy passage in front of the PV or to absorb wind production differences in case of gusts of wind ...
Storage is therefore important during the day for PV installations.

[Did67]

I'm not sure that the overall performance and cost of biomethane is better.

It seems to me that you tired a little, there ???

1) The subsidized price of electricity from "anaerobic digestion" varies approximately from 8 to 19 cents per kWh, depending on whether it is livestock effluents and the heat recovery rate (cogeneration) and depending on the size of the installation. I could be wrong with a hundred or two ...

So: a) the production cost is therefore already cheaper than PV; b) with that we profitably finance projects in which the cogeneration group is only a small expense

2) It was not the debate. I will try to be understandable in relation to my suggestion.

a) currently: a unit is infrastructures, tanks, regulations, safety systems, a group of co-workers, "mixers", hygienizers, etc ...

The principle is to size the group so that it runs 24 hours a day 24 days a year (360 days of maintenance / oil change / technical incidents).

And with that so it produces, come on, 15 cents a kwh.

b) my suggestion is rather than storing (at the prices discussed above) the electricity from PV, to use methane as an adjustment variable, because it can be stored very simply! So stop the cogé group the day and store the gas. Collectively, this would amount to consuming only PV electricity without storing it during the day (since it is expensive - see the project budget we are debating).

By increasing the "cap" of the biomethane tanks a little, to store a little more gas and by doubling the groups, we would run two groups at full speed all night long, when there is no more PV (instead of run a single group 24 hours a day). Total production would be unchanged. But it would be totally focused on the night, where the PV is failing.

A cogé group is an order of magnitude of 100 euros, for a "top" unit from 000 to 1 kW.

But as explained above, in fact, if the investment in the process would be greater (+ 100 to 150 euros for a unit that costs 000 million euros), the lifespan of the groups would also be doubled (since they turn less). This investment is therefore recovered. Instead of replacing the engine after 2 or 7 years, we would be quiet for 8 years!

This would lead to an "additional cost" (corresponding to storage in the form of gas) that is barely measurable.

Still to set orders of magnitude: a 300 kW unit produces around 2 Mwh per year. If you "store" half to transfer it from day to night, that makes a "transfer" of 500 Mwh for 1 or 250 euros per year (a group amortized over 10 years). I do not know how to quantify the additional cost of a larger "hat"

It is too not too expensive for you not to understand ??? Or are you focused on SAFT (friends over there? Lobby?).

So even if you don't want to understand, I stand by my conclusion.

The type of storage discussed above, apart from the “niches” mentioned (isolation, insularity and of course no biomass - therefore “desert”) does not seem reasonable to me. So the project is "beautiful". But it's a pipe dream (except for a technical revolution to come - I'm talking about the solution we're debating here)

And the SMART GRID would be precisely manage intelligently, as I suggest, the various resources available. And do not make an obsession with PV or the batteries! So I agree with that (the SMART GRID).

To tell the truth, I don't understand:

a) that people who are enlightened on the subject (like you in particular) do not understand!
b) that this is not already happening; of course, a slight bonus should be given for night-time production, in order to encourage people to "over-equip" and "to defer". Even a bonus for the night / penalty for the day. In fact, it would suffice for electricity to follow the "spot" tariffs a little better (the electricity tariff on the European market at nightfall increases; ERDF should be required to pass it on to the methanizers)
c) never heard of our enarques who are supposed to "guide" our energy policy and, now, help us to reduce our dependence on nuclear power (but I don't frequent them; maybe they work on it every day and that I don't know?).

[chatelot16]

to postpone by some hours the electric production of some methane generator has an efficiency of 100% and a long term cost exactly zero

in the same way of intelligent control of all consumption that can be

Of course, the power currently produced by the methanisers being negligible, piloting methanisers to regulate the network is not a miracle solution ... but small streams make big rivers!

[chatelot16]

condition of being approved on environmental quality.
I do not know the details of the recycling / regeneration process for lead / antimony batteries.

that's the problem!

there has been a certain factory which has polluted a lot in the previous centuries, which has made a lot of effort, and which could even have used polluted soils as an ore in the previous centuries

alas we closed metal europe when it was able to no longer pollute, and now we send the old batteries where it is done anyhow ... there are still other factories that recycle lead but it are forced to hide because society is so absurd

it is stupid to transport lead: the chemistry of lead is simple: all operations can be done in small quantities, it is not like steel or a blast furnace can be profitable only if it is very large

it's not like the lithium battery industry which is very technical

gaston planted obtained honorable results from the start ... just read his book to do the same the first time

[Woodcutter]

the advantage of lead is precisely that it is very easy to recycle on the spot ... and a lead recycling workshop justified by a large electrical storage plant can be made even more profitable by recycling lead batteries from all over the region. .. instead of sending them back to China

Provided they are approved on environmental quality.
I do not know the details of the recycling / regeneration process for lead / antimony batteries.

For details, contact METALEUROP!

[Did67]

Of course, the power currently produced by the methanisers being negligible, piloting methanisers to regulate the network is not a miracle solution ... but small streams make big rivers!

Of course !

And of course, I was in a perspective where the share of biomethane could represent something significant!

We will surrender then take into account that we are heading towards "surpluses" during the day, especially if there is wind and that all the units will have been designed without the capacity to store biomethane!

So I think it would not be stupid to develop this path in an intelligent way, since we are behind schedule, by integrating this situation: smart grid, storage, cogé which only run when we are in the "black hole" ...

And I find that once again, the decision-makers don't think much.

What are we risking? A brutal "brake" because we see that there is schmilblic !!!

Hence the fact that I am "reassembled" that we do not understand this (even if without doubt, that will not change anything; unless one of these enarques read econology? I might have upset him ?? ?).

[I Citro]

Thank you Chatelot16 for these details on lead. I didn't know that you could still find works by Gaston PLANTE, the inventor of the battery.