Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?

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Olivier22
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Olivier22 » 21/11/17, 22:20

Hello,
What about hydrogen?
The electrolysis has a suitable yield, the density of stored energy is also (especially if the tank is pressurized) and the production works even for very low currents.
For the return: a fuel cell.
It makes an installation not very complicated in the end. It would be worth looking into
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by sicetaitsimple » 21/11/17, 22:38

Olivier22 wrote:Hello,
What about hydrogen?
The electrolysis has a suitable yield, the density of stored energy is also (especially if the tank is pressurized) and the production works even for very low currents.
For the return: a fuel cell.
It makes an installation not very complicated in the end. It would be worth looking into


Not complicated? If you say so....

Water treatment, electrolysis, compression station, tank, fuel cell, it's very simple! Certainly technologically all bricks exist.

Rest assured, there are a lot of people who have been looking into this for a long time, but they haven't really found it yet (at economically acceptable costs).
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Olivier22 » 21/11/17, 23:20

Yes, it is simple compared to a mechanical pumping installation.
It comes down to a compartmentalized tank, an expansion tank and a hydrogen fuel cell.
There is no need for a compressor station if the process itself is carried out under (low) pressure. Storage is therefore at low pressure, which is inapplicable for transport etc. but already more conceivable for a fixed installation where production and consumption alternate over short periods.

Just the price of the land to create a sufficient pool can explode the price of a small hydrogen fuel cell. Then there is the digging, the earthwork, before even thinking of the pumping / generation equipment itself.
A tank built at height solves these questions but is certainly very expensive and complex too (structure, foundations, etc.).

Level maintenance, it's the same, the current maintenance of a heat pump is to be put in the balance compared to the maintenance of a pond and a pump ...

The micro-production or energy recovery solutions are all commercially unacceptable today :? This does not necessarily mean that they cannot be profitable over time, but that this duration is too long for them to represent a worthwhile investment.
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by chatelot16 » 22/11/17, 00:09

gas storage at atmospheric pressure has already existed! it was the gas factory gasometer! it was very big for a fairly low amount of energy but as at the time we had nothing better contented with it

there is only one thing left from that time: the expression gas plant to say that something is complicated

the gas produced by the gas factories which pyrolyzed coal was a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and various hydrocarbons and damaged ... fortunately that it was not only hydrogen because the hydrogen is too light a gas which takes up too much space if it is not compressed

the calorific value of hydrogen in J / kg is not interesting when we put it in J / m3

currently the storage of energy by pumping water in artificial lakes remains the best solution by taking advantage of a natural site easy to develop ... but when all the possible site are used we do not know what to do more

energy storage is not the only solution to use intermittent energy sources: my best solution is to manage consumption to adapt it to production: there are many uses of electricity that do not have need to be continuous, and it would not cost much to control them according to the energy production
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by izentrop » 22/11/17, 09:00

Fuel cells are still in development http://www2.cnrs.fr/presse/communique/5157.htm because the cumulative energy yields from the synthesis of dihydrogen and from compression or liquefaction are still quite low.
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by dirk pitt » 22/11/17, 09:25

chatelot16 wrote:energy storage is not the only solution to use intermittent energy sources: my best solution is to manage consumption to adapt it to production: there are many uses of electricity that do not have need to be continuous, and it would not cost much to control them according to the energy production


exact: smartgrids are the future of an elec network where consumption peaks have almost disappeared and with them the constraint of having a production capacity significantly higher than average production.
for example: if we force manufacturers of fridges, freezers and cumulus to integrate CPL into their equipment, in less than 10 years (which is the rate of renewal of these devices, we could control all of this equipment to erase the peaks.
these devices have long time constants and can therefore be deleted easily without changing the quality of use.
a few hundred watts multiplied by the number of French households, that's a lot of megawatts (watts we don't use)
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Gaston » 22/11/17, 11:03

The electrolysis / PAC pair has a lower yield than the charge / discharge of a battery.

It is therefore only interesting if there is another criterion than the storage / destocking yield to be optimized.
Storage capacity can be one of these criteria, but in this case we choose to store hydrogen under pressure.

The way of storing hydrogen in the form of formic acid (liquid at room temperature) seems promising, but the stages of synthesis of formic acid (from hydrogen and CO2) and catalytic decomposition of the formic acid to recover hydrogen complicate the process (and further decrease the yield).
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by chatelot16 » 23/11/17, 20:54

stop your illusions on the hydrogen solution fuel cell ... to make a good yield of electrolyzer or fuel cell you need large areas of electrodes in expensive materials ... and that makes hydrogen that we don't know how to store economically

with an electric battery, the same electrode surface is used both for electrolysis, storage, and the fuel cell ... an electric battery is therefore simpler! and especially already available in the trade without inventing anything!

lead acid batteries have been available for a long time for cases where weight is not a problem

lithium batteries are more expensive, more fragile and even dangerous if they are used improperly, but as long as they are used properly they are spectacular for their good performance: they remain completely cold during charging and discharging!

the problem of batteries, whether lead or lithium is that it is too expensive for large amounts of energy ... hence the preference for pumping water

pumping water is part of regional planning ... there are lots of places in France where water storage is not only profitable for energy storage but could be justified for the fire safety ... for irrigation ... for drinking water ... against flooding: and energy storage is just the icing on the cake
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by BaudouinLabrique » 16/02/18, 14:07

bardal wrote: hydrogen or methane storage is far too complex, and has a rather poor yield; Finally, it is the good old lead-acid battery which turns out to be the most suitable for stationary household storage, not too expensive (€ 100 per kWh stored approx.), not too bulky, and with a fairly good performance (approx. 80 %); other battery technologies have some advantages, but are much more expensive ...


Less and less true, because:

1 ° there are systems that are already planned for; storing wind power (especially when there is a profusion and therefore sold at too low a price) in the form of hydrogen. (Example)

2 ° the "good old lead acid battery" is a ecological nonsense : huge gray footprint and problematic recycling!

3 ° storage very limited in time with batteries, while in the form of hydrogen it is almost eternal!

4 ° efficiency of the increasingly efficient electrolyzer / fuel cell pairs (> 41%);
but which can reach 95% if the residual heat is used, among other things for residential heating ...
(Cf. Topic The hydrogen house)

5 ° limited lifespan of the batteries and therefore significant replacement cost.
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 10:30

Besides this sacred JULES VERNE was right again!

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(Extract of The mysterious island)
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).

 


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