as long as EDF's off-peak rate stays overnight, it proves that photovoltaics are still too low ... when there is a lot more photovoltaics it will be time to make a variable tariff in real time
as long as the off-peak tariff stays overnight it is proof that there is not much need for storage
when there is a need for storage, it will suffice to make a variable tariff to encourage consumers to automate their consumption
Energy storage gravity
- chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
- Location: Angouleme
- x 264
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 9803
- Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
- Location: Lower Normandy
- x 2658
Re: Energy Storage gravity
sicetaitsimple wrote:lilian07 wrote:With the multiplication of renewable energies, more sustained pumped storage could perhaps provide solutions to intermittency.
It depends on which ENRs and at what level they are deployed. The initial deployment of PV capacities, for example the approximately 7GW that we have today in France, has a smoothing effect on market prices, because they produce during the day and therefore "plan" the price peak ( mid-day market). And therefore the WWTPs run less! It might be counterintuitive, but that's how it is!
Now, the day when there will be 50GW of PV in France, of course the STEP will pump to death all day long in the summer.
A complement for wind power: the problem (with regard to storage) is that it produces continuously (when it produces strong) often over a relatively long period, 1 to 3 days. Bah there once the upper tank of the WWTP is full, bah it is full!
Well, you will tell me, yakafaire larger upper tanks .....
0 x
- chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
- Location: Angouleme
- x 264
Re: Energy Storage gravity
when the tank is full the electric company is happy! ... no matter if the wind continues to blow, it costs nothing to let the wind pass without turbinating it
it is when the tank is empty that there is a problem: it is necessary to turn on the thermal power station and pay the fuel
Finally when I say it costs nothing to let the wind pass without turbinating it is by forgetting the bad contract which obliges the electric company to pay wind and photovoltaic energy even when there is no need for it
it is when the tank is empty that there is a problem: it is necessary to turn on the thermal power station and pay the fuel
Finally when I say it costs nothing to let the wind pass without turbinating it is by forgetting the bad contract which obliges the electric company to pay wind and photovoltaic energy even when there is no need for it
0 x
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 9803
- Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
- Location: Lower Normandy
- x 2658
Re: Energy Storage gravity
chatelot16 wrote: no matter if the wind continues to blow, it costs nothing to let the wind pass without turbinating it
Yes, it is called in English the curtailment, it is not necessarily stupid if it remains limited.
But here we were talking about storage, full storage but which you are not going to use over a few days offers little interest, at least for an electric operator.
0 x
Re: Energy Storage gravity
In fact maybe that is a bit of the problem .... stock and price management, nothing is currently optimized, which is why our dams generally remain full (90% of the time). True intelligent management of the energy flow at the macroscopic (region / department) and microscopic (housing) levels would certainly make it possible to use dams at 80% instead of the current 10%, but it is certainly complex to produce predictive, efficient models , without taking risks for EdF and unprofitable in a context where energy is still cheap.
If the habitat and the region become a Smart grid then the pricing will no longer be binary HP / HC but really variable with differences of the type simple to double or triple changing 10 times a day .... it is not not tomorrow the day before because nothing is optimized in this sector (neither the habitat, nor the supplier) and we waste stock therefore intermittent "green" energy ....
If we add to this principle a "service" type management (à la carte management of the user by Smartphone for heating for example ...) then we could take a big step in the optimization of resources without changing our infrastructure heavy stock (today we know, we are "broke" and we will not build a big dam, so let's be smart ...).
If the habitat and the region become a Smart grid then the pricing will no longer be binary HP / HC but really variable with differences of the type simple to double or triple changing 10 times a day .... it is not not tomorrow the day before because nothing is optimized in this sector (neither the habitat, nor the supplier) and we waste stock therefore intermittent "green" energy ....
If we add to this principle a "service" type management (à la carte management of the user by Smartphone for heating for example ...) then we could take a big step in the optimization of resources without changing our infrastructure heavy stock (today we know, we are "broke" and we will not build a big dam, so let's be smart ...).
0 x
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 13693
- Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
- Location: picardie
- x 1516
- Contact :
Re: Energy Storage gravity
For clever plans, the UJP is not even one anymore ...
the EJP rate is no longer the most competitive rate. With EJP, electricity costs € 0,1399 / kWh on normal days and € 0,3736 / kWh on EJP days. With Engie's Happ-e offer, electricity costs € 0,1362 / kWh ... All year round. And with Total Spring (the new 100% green electricity offer from the Total group), electricity is at 0,1371 € / kWh ... all year round also (calculation hypotheses: optional 12 kVA meter Base - maximum local taxes). https://selectra.info/energie/fournisseurs/edf/ejp
0 x
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 9803
- Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
- Location: Lower Normandy
- x 2658
Re: Energy Storage gravity
lilian07 wrote:stock and price management, nothing is currently optimized, which is why our dams generally remain full (90% of the time). True intelligent management of the energy flow at the macroscopic (region / department) and microscopic (housing) levels would certainly make it possible to use dams at 80% instead of the current 10%
Where do these numbers come from? And what roadblocks are you talking about? Those of STEP only?
0 x
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 5111
- Registration: 28/09/09, 17:35
- Location: Isére
- x 554
Re: Energy Storage gravity
lilian07 wrote:(today we know, we are "broke" and we will not make a big dam so let's be smart ...).
The reason why we no longer make dams in France is not at all because we would be "broke". It is totally absurd.
This is because there is no longer an adequate site and the population does not want a dam anyway.
For an unfortunate little dam of nothing at all (in fact a water reservoir) in Sivens there was a death.
0 x
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 5111
- Registration: 28/09/09, 17:35
- Location: Isére
- x 554
Re: Energy Storage gravity
lilian07 wrote:stock and price management, nothing is currently optimized, which is why our dams generally remain full (90% of the time). True intelligent management of the energy flow at the macroscopic (region / department) and microscopic (housing) levels would certainly make it possible to use dams at 80% instead of the current 10%
Totally bogus figures.
Please cite a serious study.
0 x
- chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
- Location: Angouleme
- x 264
Re: Energy Storage gravity
with large artificial lakes in the mountains we store energy over an entire year
any dam on a small river as there is for a multitude of water mill can only store energy on the scale of a day it allowed at the time when the mill was used to turbine during the day to make flour or other use of the mill and let the water level rise at night: this type of mill would be perfect for producing at night when the photovoltaics produce the day
alas the majority of the small mill is abandoned ... each mill has a fairly modest power but the total possible power is enormous ... alas the rules to be observed to put a mill back into service are hellish!
we forget that the majority of rivers have not been natural for centuries! their natural state is a narrow river with rapids sloping everywhere ... at the time when the mills were the only economic source of mechanical energy we transformed the rivers into channels without slopes to concentrate the difference in level in the mills and use all the energy of the river
the development of the rivers with a lot of dam and mill also makes it possible to avoid flooding by dredging the reach between the mills: when there are dams to maintain a good level of water you can dredge for a larger section of passage of water that the river in its natural state ... the large section of passge decreases the slope and increases the power provided by the mills ... and in case of flood it is enough to open the dams so that it empties better thanks to the larger passage section
and we can do even better: pump backwards from reach to reach to bring water up to a mountain dam
any dam on a small river as there is for a multitude of water mill can only store energy on the scale of a day it allowed at the time when the mill was used to turbine during the day to make flour or other use of the mill and let the water level rise at night: this type of mill would be perfect for producing at night when the photovoltaics produce the day
alas the majority of the small mill is abandoned ... each mill has a fairly modest power but the total possible power is enormous ... alas the rules to be observed to put a mill back into service are hellish!
we forget that the majority of rivers have not been natural for centuries! their natural state is a narrow river with rapids sloping everywhere ... at the time when the mills were the only economic source of mechanical energy we transformed the rivers into channels without slopes to concentrate the difference in level in the mills and use all the energy of the river
the development of the rivers with a lot of dam and mill also makes it possible to avoid flooding by dredging the reach between the mills: when there are dams to maintain a good level of water you can dredge for a larger section of passage of water that the river in its natural state ... the large section of passge decreases the slope and increases the power provided by the mills ... and in case of flood it is enough to open the dams so that it empties better thanks to the larger passage section
and we can do even better: pump backwards from reach to reach to bring water up to a mountain dam
0 x
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 5 Replies
- 979 views
-
Last message by Remundo
View the latest post
17/11/23, 08:12A subject posted in the forum : Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...
-
- 2 Replies
- 5479 views
-
Last message by moinsdewatt
View the latest post
13/02/21, 12:25A subject posted in the forum : Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...
-
- 41 Replies
- 39835 views
-
Last message by BaudouinLabrique
View the latest post
24/02/18, 14:27A subject posted in the forum : Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...
-
- 65 Replies
- 42311 views
-
Last message by dirk pitt
View the latest post
20/06/17, 16:05A subject posted in the forum : Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...
-
- 58 Replies
- 46300 views
-
Last message by izentrop
View the latest post
03/02/19, 11:54A subject posted in the forum : Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...
Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 316 guests