New batteries come in 2014: 800 Wh / kg

[jean.caissepas]

Hello,

Here is an excerpt from the article on the AVEM website:

Bought at the start of the year by the Chinese group Wanxiang, the American battery manufacturer A123 Systems is once again being talked about and has just concluded a technological partnership with SolidEnergy for the development of new lithium batteries announcing a potential of 800 Wh / kg.

The project is led by 123 Venture Technologies, a division of A123 Systems playing the role of technological incubator, which will work alongside SolidEnergy teams to support them in the development of new generation lithium batteries with a solid electrolyte. And the prospects seem more than interesting for the sector since this new battery could offer up to 800 Wh / kg of energy capacity. For comparison, the Panasonic lithium batteries on board the Tesla Model S display only 200 Wh / kg ...

The first prototypes will be developed by the end of 2014 and will allow the two partners to start discussions with hypothetical customers.

Link : http://www.avem.fr/actualite-a123-systems-veut-developper-une-batterie-lithium-de-800-wh-kg-4516.html

This is 4 times more capacity / Kg than the Tesla which has very good batteries. It's really hesitant to buy an EV with the current batteries ...

[Remundo]

Thanks for the article, but ...

caution, caution.

[I Citro]

In the energy world, announcements of this type are almost daily.
Yesterday, I came across graphene "super batteries" that can be recharged in one minute with outlets for computers, telephony, transport ...

Energy storage will be the CHALLENGE of the 21st century.

I hesitated for a long time to buy my first electric car, on the grounds that it was not perfected (I naively believed it).
120.000km and 5 years later I regret not having done it earlier ...

Going overnight to a vehicle that consumes 2 liters per 100km will comfort you in your choice, but above all, discover this other world that is the automobile without noise, without vibrations, without gear lever and without the need to press the brake and difficult to understand until we have tried. When, in addition, you discover that an EV can be very efficient ...

You can also wait until the flying cars are marketed ... We were promised them for the year 2000.

[chatelot16]

do we really need to race for Wh / kg?

the most interesting figure is rather in euro / kWh stored over the life of the battery ... we must especially look for the long lifespan

and in this genre I have the impression that the nickel cadnium is not bad

lithium is much more expensive and I have little hope that its lifespan will make it more profitable than nickel cadnium

so why we do not market correctly these CdNi batteries which are in development for a long time

we almost banned them for ecological reasons from cadnium ... but a CdNi battery never leaks: recycling cadnium is easily manageable

NiCd batteries will always be manufactured, because they are essential in planes ... boing tried to put lithium in it and there have already been fires! so if with the luxury of study that we allow ourselves in aviation there are still fires it is that there is really an insurmountable problem!

another way of seeing, the lithium given their complexity will never be dismountable and repairable: the CdNi could be dismountable, therefore even longer service life!

and do not forget the good old lead battery which has been profitable for a long time for the machine or the weight does not harm: forklift

[jonule]

especially that these are repackable as desired by the user: just open them, clean them manually or chemically then electrically!

http://mon.danstagueule.fr.free.fr/NRJr ... enacu.html

Energy storage will be the CHALLENGE of the 21st century.

you mean for electric? because for hot water it seems to me that we have found a long time
the article still looks like an invitation to invest in the stock market for 123 thing, as for your sentence it looks like the old speech "you are going to see nuclear power will revolutionize the world of tomorrow"! =) it mainly benefited a finite number of shareholders and fired in the mouth of the public ...

Going overnight to a vehicle that consumes 2 liters per 100km will comfort you in your choice

citro, do you take into account in your calculation the whole chain of nuclear production (80% of electricity) which takes into account the gray energy spent for the extraction of the ore / transport / transformation into fuel / dismantling / waste?
because if you don't take it into account, that means: who pays in the end?
I know that 1 liter of diesel is needed to ultimately deliver 0.9 liter of diesel to the pump, but "at the outlet"?

I say false advertising ?! if we are only talking about money, what about the total life of the vehicle? only related to the lifespan of the batteries?

we then come to the main question which is not in the advertisement (that's why I say false advertising, or false): how much is this battery pack sold for the public? what is its lifespan?

ahlala with electric vehicles for sale it will really be necessary to be wary of advertisers of all kinds I have the impression ...

[jonule]

yes, the 2L at the cent cannot be a selling point, it smells like the seller scam:

we can not talk about liter consumption per hundred kilometers, because an electric vehicle does not consume a liter per kilometer, but watt / h: we must add the price of the battery pack!

thus 2L to 100, reducing to the price of the battery pack, reduced to its price for so many kilometers (how much is it?) gives its real consumption ?!

so; a battery pack costing 5000 € to drive 100.000 km (much more expensive than a second-hand vehicle ... with HS batteries, look for the error): that's 100km: 5 €!

either + than 2 liters, if we consider the liter of diesel at € 1.3, that's 3.8 liters per hundred, or about 4 liters!

it is enough to add the load of the vehicle which makes that one over-loads the vehicle compared to its use (need to be connected) as well as the heat losses, we can consider a consumption of 5 liters per 100!

elementary my dear Citro! =)

well, nothing too extraordinary! all that for nuclear, to which we must now add all the gray energy (convertible into watts and therefore into € and km thank you econologie.com) of the complete chain without taking into account the risk factor (are the batteries elsewhere insured?) and we arrive at 6L per hundred kilometers?
well i do less with my thermal vehicle!

well sure before we take the head between us, we will take the head to refine these calculations, I'm sure

[chatelot16]

an electric vehicle does not consume a liter per kilometer, but watt / h

no liter, but even less watt / h! absurd unity that cannot exist

spelling mistakes do not prevent understanding ... but the confusion between W and Wh does not stop confusing those who seek to understand ... if in addition we put W / h impossible

[jonule]

yes it is true, excuse me Chatelot, it is in the outburst, but I believe that behind the outburst there is a real scam which I dislike enough.

thank you citro for making us interested in batteries, a weak point of electric vehicles, both in terms of their price and their lifespan, not to mention their pollution ...

"Energy balance

To make a complete energy balance, it is necessary to take into account other factors than the simple electrical efficiency of the motor. The main one of these factors is the efficiency of the primary production of electricity. Then there are losses (about 8%) in the transmission lines, in the switching transformer-rectifier which supplies the current to the battery (about 10%), and in the electronics and the electric motor (another 10% ). The battery charging efficiency is of the order of 0,9 (between 0,92 and 0,85). We must therefore multiply the efficiency of the electric generator by 0.65 for the overall efficiency. In the case of nuclear electricity, the overall thermal efficiency is around 24%. With combined cycle gas power plants, we can expect 35%. Even so, the reduction in carbon dioxide emissions is significant since the gas emits 25% less CO2 than gasoline, and the average efficiency of a car engine hardly exceeds 15%! "
source: http://sfp.in2p3.fr/Debat/debat_energie ... -elect.htm




"Some lithium-ion batteries can today withstand nearly 2000 charge / discharge cycles and operate for more than 10 years"
source: http://voiture-electrique.durable.com/a ... lectriques

profitability over 10 years! after, must buy back: how much €€?
must: it depends on the cycle, but especially on the equation used, not revealed here.

oh well i stress:
"Today, with lithium-ion, it is estimated that the cost of an average battery would be around 400 € / Wh, or battery packs between 6000 € and 12 € depending on the model and the desired autonomy. . "
but ... is that much more than the 5000 € I was talking about? !!

how much then in consumption for 100km then? ? ? I'm just going to retain an average of € 10.000, which doubles the 3L to the hundred so 6L to the hundred.

"Today, a technology seems to be essential: lithium-based batteries. They currently allow storage between 80 and 200 Wh per kilogram of battery. This translates concretely into a range of around 150 km with a battery pack from 100 to 200kg. However, these figures can vary considerably depending on the manufacturer, vehicle model and scientific advances in the field. "
150km for one cycle. how many cycles?

"In terms of living standards, progress is more satisfactory. Some lithium-ion batteries can now withstand nearly 2000 charge / discharge cycles and operate for more than 10 years while retaining more than 80% of their storage capacity."
ok, 2000 cycles (I would rather tabulate around 1000 cycles) or 300.000 km, minus 80% of storage capacity: 240.000 km, theoretical seller term.
I await the practical terms, I will rather go to seek them.

and we're not talking about the energy it takes to chuaffer in winter ...


warning and advice on the electric car:
http://www.vehiculeselectriques.fr/sujet522.html


finally after this industrial lobbyist advertisement "energy storage will be the bet of the 21st century" (for me it is above all the social aspect of the worker but hey each his center of interest), the ecological aspect:
as for uranium:
what main material is used in its manufacture? how many years remain for this ore, according to the quantity of production? which country has it?
will this geopolitical aspect tend to raise its price? is waste treatment included in the sale price, and where does the product end up?
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20 ... -blanc.php
http://www.consoglobe.com/fin-du-lithium-cg


not to mention the problem of exhaustion - runaway still as technologically revolutionary as nuclear electricity MWOUAHAHA!
fukushima at home: what happens when the TESLA is no longer cooled?
IS IT EXPLODING ?!



revolutionary for sure, as a time bomb there is no better! afterwards, to each target.

choose your bomb:
http://www.avem.fr/voiture-electrique.html
what a collection of ridiculous and inaccessibly expensive vehicles!

well I want to stop but must also play the game; =)

[chatelot16]

"Today, with lithium-ion, it is estimated that the cost of an average battery would be around 400 € / Wh, or battery packs between 6000 € and 12 € depending on the model and the desired autonomy. . "

if the battery actually lasts 2000 cycles

400 € / Wh / 2000 = 0,2 euro / Wh therefore 200euro / kWh

it's absurd ! where does this figure come from?

for lead battery there are about 100Ah 12V to 100 euro so
0,083 euro / Wh
or 83 euro / kWh

and if the battery lasts 500cycle it costs
83 euro / kWh / 500 = 0,16 euro / kWh therefore more expensive than the current EDF tariff

and I forget to take into account the energy efficiency of the lead-acid battery which is at most 80%, but which is actually much worse when the vehicle is not fully used all day: count the auto discharge in more ... like a pierced gas tank!

nickel cadnium gives larger number of cycles ... see citro with its fairly old battery, but lower energy efficiency / large difference in voltage between charge and discharge

[raymon]

In my opinion, the solution will come from super graphene capacitors when we have successfully miniaturized the number of cycles at 50 will be really interesting for now, I prefer my old Laguna petrol.