Disinformation: renewables are bankruptcy EDF?

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
Meszigues3
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 57
Registration: 06/02/17, 19:12
x 8

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by Meszigues3 » 10/02/17, 18:16

Did67 wrote:I put the info there, but I do not know if it is the right place: a report from ADEME giving the cost of renewable energies, released in mid-January

http://www.ademe.fr/sites/default/files ... 2016v1.pdf
ADEME file: Renewable energy costs
Extracts page 7
"The costs related to the variability of renewables for the power system are not assessed or taken into account here."
An incredible financial sleight of hand. From January 15 to 26 in Germany, wind power and PV sometimes supplied less than 1 GW out of 90 GW installed. Who pays to install and maintain the essential emergency equipment?



"For the moment, these costs (which are mainly frequency regulation costs)"
Frequency regulation? When does it last for whole days?

[These costs] are borne by consumers in the context of network costs and are not allocated to the project developer.
These costs borne by consumers go unnoticed in France as long as wind power and PV supply only a small part of production (5,3% in 2015).

It must be admitted, however, that if the share of RES increased, gas plants would have to be built " borne by consumers in the context of network costs ". This would therefore significantly increase the price per kWh, bringing it closer to German, Danish, etc. tariffs. (the green countries). A renewable energy tariff pushes consumers to frugality, for the greatest good of the planet: live wind turbines!
0 x
ENERC
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 725
Registration: 06/02/17, 15:25
x 255

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by ENERC » 10/02/17, 18:37

It must be admitted, however, that if the share of renewable energies increased, gas-fired power plants "assumed by consumers in the context of network costs" would have to be built.


Why gas plants? We could think of doing cogeneration in large gas boilers (collective, industry and commerce): instead of foolishly burning the gas, send it in a turbine that produces electricity and recover the remaining 60% to heat .
In an ADEME scenario with gas storage such as anaerobic digestion or Power To Gas, this is a solution that answers the problem since in France cold equals overconsumption of electricity.
But you have to think decentralized. And there it is not won for the moment.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by chatelot16 » 10/02/17, 19:09

to participate in the regulation of the network you need power stations controlled by edf capable of quickly modifying their power to the order of edf

currently gas cogenerators produce the electrical power they want, without control by edf

it would not be difficult to install means of controlling the cogenerator, but it seems that edf prefers to put money in the linky which are used for nothing but in control systems of the small cogenerator

however a multitude of small cogenerator would be for EDF a free means of regulating the network: because the customers would install cogenerator first to make heating ... the possibility of putting them at full power even when there is no need of heat but just to help edf would be an additional function
0 x
ENERC
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 725
Registration: 06/02/17, 15:25
x 255

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by ENERC » 10/02/17, 19:25

RTE is the one that would set a price based on the wholesale price to encourage more cogeneration when electricity is expensive.

After that is EDF, Engie, Direct Energie or the others who buy, everyone to see.

Indeed, sending a control signal to cogeneration would be a very good idea. In addition to heat, it stores a little.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by chatelot16 » 10/02/17, 20:12

the separation between edf erdf rte enedis and I don't know what else is a problem! there is no more captain in the boat
0 x
Meszigues3
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 57
Registration: 06/02/17, 19:12
x 8

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by Meszigues3 » 10/02/17, 20:16

ENERC wrote:Why gas plants?

In the ADEME 2050 scenario, it is planned to produce 303 + 82 TWh per wind + solar = 385.

If at the moment 89 GW installed in Germany produce in the evening less than a GW in the event of a sunshine, in 2050 in France 170 GW will produce less than 5 GW; 75 GW is needed to make 80 GW. It is not cogeneration that will provide this enormous power (there are only 3 GW, yes three, of cogeneration installed, see table 20 of the ADEME report).
Methanization and storage are not yet developed industrially.

Anyway the question was: who pays for the wind-up back-up? Consumers of course. The least clairvoyance would be to attribute it to variable sources.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by chatelot16 » 10/02/17, 20:50

the total power in cogeneration is low because edf does not pay for the service it could provide!

if there were a clear tariff to pay those who agreed to build cogenerators, there would be many more, we would no longer burn fuel just to heat

the same goes for methanization: any methanizer naturally has a gas storage capacity under its tarpaulin ... it would not cost much to order its generator sets according to demand rather than having them produced at constant power as currently

of course to produce 2 times more peak and produce nothing in off-peak hours you must increase the power of the installed group, but it does not cost much because the groups are profitable with the total energy they produce before being worn or reconditioned ... installing twice as much power lasts twice as long

increasing the power to be able to adapt to consumption is a fairly low investment: the groups are far from being the most expensive part of a methanizer ... it is an investment that would be easy to make if edf encouraged this function
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by sen-no-sen » 10/02/17, 21:00

Meszigues3 wrote:
ENERC wrote: It is not cogeneration that will provide this enormous power (there are only 3 GW, yes three, of cogeneration installed, see table 20 of the ADEME report).
Methanization and storage are not yet developed industrially.


It is for this reason that France is probably not going out of nuclear power.
The Germans make up for their exit from nuclear power with coal, which makes a very credible mix, renewable energy boosting coal!
A production solely focused on wind and solar will not be very acceptable, especially when you know that it takes between 5000/8000 wind turbines (1MW, 80m high!) To replace a nuclear power plant ...
The "least worst" of the solutions would be a mix of biomass / solar / wind and generation 4 nuclear power (energy amplifier) in a context of strong decrease.
1 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Meszigues3
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 57
Registration: 06/02/17, 19:12
x 8

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by Meszigues3 » 10/02/17, 21:36

chatelot16 wrote:increasing the power to be able to adapt to consumption is a fairly low investment: the groups are far from being the most expensive part of a methanizer ... it is an investment that would be easy to make if edf encouraged this function

Encouraged = probably subsidized?
Wind generation varied from 34 to 8632 MW in 2016.
We therefore need a back-up system of several GWs, several tens of GWs in 2050 according to the ADEME plan.

Who pays ? The consumer anyway. It is also necessary to have the honesty to charge back-up expenses to fleeting energies.

This admitted (is it okay?) How are we going to do that is another question.
Widespread cogeneration? In the city ?
0 x
Meszigues3
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 57
Registration: 06/02/17, 19:12
x 8

Re: Disinformation: renewable energies bankrupt EDF?




by Meszigues3 » 10/02/17, 21:42

sen-no-sen wrote:It is for this reason that France is probably not going out of nuclear power.
The Germans make up for their exit from nuclear power with coal, which makes a very credible mix, renewable energy boosting coal!
A production solely focused on wind and solar will not be very acceptable, especially when you know that it takes between 5000/8000 wind turbines (1MW, 80m high!) To replace a nuclear power plant ...
The "least worst" of the solutions would be a mix of biomass / solar / wind and generation 4 nuclear power (energy amplifier) in a context of strong decrease.

Okay, except:
"It takes between 5000/8000 wind turbines (1MW, 80m high!) To replace a nuclear power plant ..."
You forgot the back-up.
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 237 guests