Water mill, hydropower and central heating

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patrice24
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Water mill, hydropower and central heating




by patrice24 » 23/02/12, 15:48

Hello everyone from the Econological community
I discovered your site and I think I found the community there that will allow me to develop my projects.

I am a recent and happy owner of a mill on a river and I decided to make it a laboratory for using renewable energy at a lower cost. In short econological. I have for the moment the project of using the hydraulic energy to transform into calorific energy to heat this building very energy-consuming because large and badly insulated.

I will try to draw up the ideas and problems that I meet to launch these projects with if possible photos and / or videos in support and I count on the community of Econologists to coach me and help me move forward.

The mill now has oil central heating with 20 massive cast iron radiators. Nice installation but which consumes a max and costs a max. Idea therefore came to me to use the energy of the river which passes under the mill. Objective Ecolo, Econo, Sustainable and renewable, which says better ???

As you can see in these 1st photos the river is wide enough and its flow sufficient even if the elevation remains low. The mill is equipped with valves, 2 of which are protected by grids, on the right in the photo. The wheel and grinding wheel systems have disappeared, but it would be enough to reinstall the wheels to be able to use the energy.
The question is: certainly but how because the devices are numerous and there are some constraints.
constraint1: the siphon under the mill see section drawing
constraint 2: the slight drop even if flow ok
constraint 3: the rise in water which regularly reaches the top of the arches. see red line on the overview and we can guess this level on the right part of the photo with color difference.

My idea is to use a wheel to place under the arch and driven by the force of the current which passes under the shovels, which turns a generator which will create current which will feed a resistance which will heat the water of the heating circuit and which will circulate thanks to the boiler pump which itself will operate at idle or not at all depending on the power delivered.
There I think there are 2 possibilities
1) A horizontal wheel, most likely like the original wheel which is installed in the siphon and which is held by a vertical axis fixed on the wall of the siphon (see drawing)
2) A vertical wheel with a horizontal axis which could be fixed on the walls of the arch or on the shovel itself, providing that if the shovel goes up the wheel must not come up against the roof of the arch.

The problem is how to transform this energy by a system which potentially must be able to be submersible during the rising waters (a few hours to 2-3 days).
Go through a generator that will supply a resistance, or an alternative with a Joule effect system?
I surfed for several hours and found examples of systems described on this site but I am not sure that they can be powerful enough for my project. The drum of a washing machine coupled to a car generator for example?

So much for a first message, thank you in advance for your bright ideas, advice and experience sharing.
At your disposal if you have any questions or need further details.

Economically your

overview of the mill
Image

view of the valves with rising water level
Image

sectional drawing of a valve with siphon
Image

cross-section drawing of possibility of wheels
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phil53
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by phil53 » 23/02/12, 16:35

An idea like that by the way, if that can help you in your approach.

If your goal is only to heat, I suggest you study the following principle.
Spin a wheel that rubs inside an oil bath.
The yield should be better.
This idea came to me because I too had to transform a hydraulic source into heat.
I never went to the practical phase.
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Gaston
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by Gaston » 23/02/12, 16:53

phil53 wrote:Spin a wheel that rubs inside an oil bath.
The yield should be better.
No doubt: efficiency is much better than going through electricity.

Oil is not even essential: a system of paddles rotating in water is also very effective.
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patrice24
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by patrice24 » 23/02/12, 17:55

Joule effect is that ???
the movement of the paddles in the water will heat the water on the principle that the agitated water rises in temperature and that we can then circulate in the general circuit.
Will have to turn really quickly the paddles to heat, it's turbo reactor that I need there ....

Do you have a model like this to show me? : Mrgreen:
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by Gaston » 23/02/12, 18:23

patrice24 wrote:Joule effect is that ???
Uh no...
The Joule effect is the heating of a conductor by the passage of electric current.

There, it is simply dissipation by fluid friction.


patrice24 wrote:the movement of the paddles in the water will heat the water on the principle that the agitated water rises in temperature and that we can then circulate in the general circuit.
I would still place a heat exchanger to separate the circuits.
patrice24 wrote:Will have to turn really quickly the paddles to heat, it's turbo reactor that I need there ....
Think again, it is not necessary to turn quickly, it is simply necessary that the pallets meet a significant resistance, therefore a rather large volume of liquid with pallets of important surface (this is why it is more compact in oil).

patrice24 wrote:Do you have a model like this to show me? : Mrgreen:
Sorry no.
But it could look like this by replacing the electric motors with transmissions from the mill wheel:
Image
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patrice24
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by patrice24 » 23/02/12, 19:17

So much for me Gaston,
No joule effect but something like principle or something Joule
so if you take a liquid and shake it the temp goes up.

By the way if you take a less fluid liquid like oil, there will be more resistance so more heating, right?
And what if I put my paddle systems in an oil bath and all in a large water bath that will circulate in my pipes.
Like that
Image

And what do you think of recovering and using truck gear such as a hydraulic retarder or a torque converter for a large American car?
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 23/02/12, 19:48

of course we can always replace the alternator with something that heats up directly

for example in place of a 10KW alternator a 10kw water pump which turns water in a closed circuit with a half-closed tap: it will heat the water ... but it will be necessary to isolate this perfectly piping otherwise heat loss

and as thermal insulation is never perfect there is a risk of more heat loss than loss with an alternator

and at least one alternator doesn't just heat! it's still better!

but before you make any illusions about the power of your mill you must already calculate it: measure the flow

I understand your thing that you call siphon like the suport of the old vertical axis turbine

the turbine was in the center of the descending part and not as you drew

a wheel is a bad idea: it loses all its power when the water level rises: certain types of turbine can remain effective even with the water level rising
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 23/02/12, 20:35

patrice24 has very good ideas, very valid, as beautiful as his mill !!!

but before you need to know the power of the river: flow by height of fall.

To heat this beautiful house, 20 radiators, you need a lot of power, tens of KW, except to give it very good insulation first !!

1KW = 1 radiator corresponds to 1000 / 9,81 = 102litres / s falling from 1m and 10KW = 10 radiators requires the ton of water per second which falls from 1m high perfectly recovered (which is not the case for a paddle wheel in the current) !!

So to have the power of 20 radiators you have to drop about 2tons / s of 1m high on the blades or a turbine (better yield) !!!
I do not have the impression that the flow is 2m3 / s in winter looking at the photos ??????

So on the Joule brake that heats, there will be tons exerted to stir the blades in viscous oil, which requires a large heavy machine, and probably expensive.
Using electricity with an alternator on a high-performance turbine risks being simpler and not more expensive since it is already commercially developed.

In addition there are taxes on the mills, not negligible, which fall if it becomes producer ????
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phil53
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by phil53 » 24/02/12, 08:31

Dedelco is right, that is partly why I did not go to practice.
The little river I had could only supply one or two radiators for an investment of € 2k.
Besides that it is necessary to maintain the river on 2km upstream, I think I remember.
You should consult the rights and obligations regarding the operation of a waterfall on a watercourse.

As long as to make electricity as much to use it for a nobler cause than heating!
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Gaston
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by Gaston » 24/02/12, 10:07

phil53 wrote:As long as to make electricity as much to use it for a nobler cause than heating!
Or rather use only the surplus in heating ...

That said, the investment for an electrical system is probably more substantial than for a mechanical system.

And then the initial question of patrice24 related only to heating ...

Anyway, we must first:
1) Estimate the power available
2) Choose the type of recovery (wheel, turbine, ...)

Once the mechanical power is available at the end of the shaft, we can choose how we want to use it.
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