Geothermal energy, not convinced by the air / water cap

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
nmujdzic
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 6
Registration: 15/02/08, 15:49




by nmujdzic » 18/02/08, 10:53

I see that the subject is fascinating. Here is my project:

I remind you that my house is made of stone with very thick walls and that during the purchase, its energy performance report is classified at the letter D. In May I change all the windows and patio doors (which are in single glazing currently). House of 120 m², heated by fuel oil (1 liters since November 300st and this with great care). On the ground floor, it is around 1 ° C during the coldest period (if I touch the thermostat, consumption soars), but I have a double hearth fireplace that I turn on every evening after work. There I go up to 15-19 ° C in the living room and the living room. Upstairs, in the coldest period, it is 20 ° C (always the thermostat left low enough) and a little more when the fireplace is on. Otherwise, of course, these T ° go up when the weather is better outside.

Another important point, my brother installs air / air heat pumps in ducted system, but no air / water. So in terms of price, I will never find better elsewhere, for the simple reason that I only have the material to pay. I will have around 7 euros for a fujistsu heat pump I think (I think he will install a kind of double heat pump, with two propellers and all and all ...). The above I recover 000% of tax credit.
Also I intend to keep my oil boiler in case ... (I remind you that I live in Normandy)

So it would come back to me, come on, to around 3500-4000 euros after deduction.
Considering the savings that I will save from the fact that my brother will do the work, isn't it wiser to consider the air / air system?
0 x
User avatar
loop
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 816
Registration: 03/10/07, 06:33
Location: Picardie




by loop » 18/02/08, 12:42

Hello

Response to John:
For this, we can make direct solar: collector to underfloor heating ..... it is a solution proposed by installer located in the Alps.


Yes, the underfloor heating directly from the solar collectors is an ideal solution ..... on new and well thought out construction
But here we are talking about an existing house with its existing central heating system

You also have a very good example with Christophe's installation => ask him if he can heat his house with his thermal buffer of 70 m3 of water and 70 m2 of solar collectors?

Its buffer varies between 21 and 30 ° C approx (maximum reached exceptionally after 2 weeks of sun in Europe! Thank you the high pressure).

I think you are dreaming a little.


I'm optimistic : Lol: by nature and I set myself a goal, that of heating as much as possible with solar energy, then we'll see

To come back to Christophe's installation, I believe that the main problem is the buffer in 1 single volume heated uniformly. There are other solutions with the same water reserve which avoids this inconvenience.
I will focus more on a "cascade" solution with an operating temperature well above 30 °
Besides, the outlet temperature of the sensors can be much higher than 50 °, it is enough to regulate the circulation speed
It is also necessary to oversize the collection surface and the buffer to heat and store at the same time, when the sunshine permits.

Reply to nmujdzic

From your description of construction, it is clear that your main enemy is thermal inertia and poor insulation.
Your brother's PAC installation experience should serve as a basis for reflection, unless he is trying at all costs to sell you equipment that will not suit you
FYI, my friend who had an air-water heat pump installed at the end of 2007 to replace his fuel oil boiler, is really in trouble.
The (commercial) promises of electricity consumption are not kept and in addition, it is currently unable to heat properly at night. And for good reason it freezes. We proposed to him, as a solution, to install a group ..... more powerful (whatever)
: Shock:
The air-to-air solution is only of interest for reversible air conditioning and again, this decreases reliability.
Have you thought of an insert with a boiler to heat the central heating circuit from the fireplace?
Last thing, and perhaps most important, I repeat, what do you plan to do as insulation work?

A+
0 x
nmujdzic
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 6
Registration: 15/02/08, 15:49




by nmujdzic » 18/02/08, 13:01

So, for insulation work I plan to put glass wool in the attic. the walls will remain as they are. And also double glazing as I already mentioned.

My brother has installed a heat pump at home and his house is constantly heated to 22 ° C, regardless of the outside temperature. It is a 7-8 year old lodge, I imagine relatively well isolated. I also imagine he bought a good quality PAC. The one he advised me for at home is worth around 7 euros. I hope it's not m ... for that price. And then he will earn 000 euros on my back (ahhh, family!), So I think what I am worth installing is good quality.

As for my fireplace, that would bother me to touch it. It is a beautiful stone fireplace with a double hearth (opening onto two rooms). I'd rather keep its charm.
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79120
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 18/02/08, 13:05

nmujdzic wrote:My brother has installed a heat pump at home and his house is constantly heated to 22 ° C, regardless of the outside temperature.


For what energy bill? (subscription included) In Euros and if possible in kWh. How big is his house? This is the only way to see if it is really well classified in terms of energy consumption.

Do not forget to multiply by 2.8 each electric kWh to obtain Primary Energy kWh.

If you're more than 150 kWh / m².year, it's not an economical house.
0 x
nmujdzic
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 6
Registration: 15/02/08, 15:49




by nmujdzic » 18/02/08, 14:06

The house is 100-120 m² and has roughly 600 euros of heating / year. Calculation made on the basis of its electricity consumption before and after installation of the heat pump.
But what I wanted to say is that contrary to what I could read on the forum, the heat production is maintained even during negative T °. Certainly with a decrease in performance, but hey, if it remains relatively limited in time. Compared to 2000 liters of fuel / year, it's still interesting, isn't it?
And then he installed these same systems to several of his friends (in new and old (it all depends on the insulation you say to me!)) And all are happy (economic and comfort point of view) .
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79120
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 18/02/08, 14:17

1) At the ecological level:

600 € surplus so if I understand correctly ... Or 6000 kWh roughly, or 16 800 kWH EP or the equivalent of 1680 L of fuel. Better yes but as long as that then ...

Relative to m², we are therefore at 16 / 800 = 120 kWh EP / m².year, therefore a fairly average performance (especially compared to what users think ...) ...

See classification: https://www.econologie.com/dpe-diagramme ... -3561.html

2) At the economic level: there is no picture, it is more advantageous (approximately 50% of the price of fuel oil) ... although the lifespan and maintenance of the installation must be seen ...
0 x
User avatar
loop
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 816
Registration: 03/10/07, 06:33
Location: Picardie




by loop » 18/02/08, 19:27

Christophe gave us his econologist point of view
For the purely financial aspect, here is my calculation proposal, as a salesperson would do it:
You consume 2000 liters of fuel oil in 6 months of heating, or roughly 20000 thermal kWh
With an average efficiency heat pump 3, the electricity consumption will be 20000 / 3 = 6666 kWh electric
Consequently, the EDF budget to be forecast will be around 600 euros, without subscription, or 100 euros per month.
The savings will be 2000x0.08 = 1500 - 600 = 900 euros per year
The profitability of a heat pump at 15000 Euros (installed and sold by a professional) will be reached after 17 years

A+
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79120
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 18/02/08, 19:42

loop wrote:The profitability of a heat pump at 15000 Euros (installed and sold by a professional) will be reached after 17 years


A fridge that lasts 17 years ... hum hum how to put it ...

Otherwise in your calculation you forgot the maintenance ... but also to deduct the cost of an equivalent new boiler installation .... Well yes because if we install a heat pump it is generally in place of a boiler whether it is for renovation or new ...

So the return should be done ONLY on the additional cost of the CAP ...

Nevertheless, at 15 € you have to have action at Edf to take a heat pump because for this price you can heat with wood pellets ... more economical in the end per kWh ...

Ah one last thing: geothermal heating in France is promote the revival of nuclear power... so economical, maybe, but certainly not ecological ... and even less free energy ... (solar energy with COPs of 50 to 100 can be considered as free) ...
0 x
User avatar
loop
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 816
Registration: 03/10/07, 06:33
Location: Picardie




by loop » 18/02/08, 20:24

Christophe I completely agree with you, I was only denouncing the arguments of vacuum cleaner sellers ... : Cheesy:

Many people succumb to this kind of simplistic arguments and get rid of their boiler well before the end of their life. :!:

That said, solar alone at low temperature is not necessarily suitable for existing central heating installations with conventional radiators.
Since the time that I talk about this forum , I did not find an answer, so difficult to counter the pro-PAC.
I will consult the forum of apper-solar to inspire me

A+
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79120
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 18/02/08, 20:53

loop wrote:That said, solar alone at low temperature is not necessarily suitable for existing central heating installations with conventional radiators.
Since the time that I talk about this forum , I did not find an answer, so difficult to counter the pro-PAC.
I will consult the forum of apper-solar to inspire me

A+


1) Well the heaters on radiators is also shit, right?

Whether it is heat pump or solar (and even fossils now) it is better to keep the temperature low ... but when renovating, putting a heated floor is not ideal ... but there are LV radiators ...

2) The problem of solar is not so much the diffusion of heat as its "conservation" ... it takes important buffers to have a chance to use solar in heating. You know, I think, the capacity of our ...
0 x

Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 261 guests