vertical wind generator and tractor on the farm

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
Christophe
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by Christophe » 29/11/07, 21:34

Yes I agree with you regarding the safety of biogas ... from this point of view a minimum investment is necessary ... but for the rest I think that biogas is better to answer your problem of need for electricity in case of network failure ...

You should know that you have NO chance of reselling to EDF if your wind turbine is not approved and installed by a professional ... i.e. in many cases, overcharged ...

By cons you can resell the neighbors or turn your counter upside down but Edf may not like :D : Cheesy:
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damienf
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by damienf » 29/11/07, 21:34

last precision about my farm, if the winds were constant, I may have already invested in a wind turbine classic 15000 € adapted to my farm (estimate and wind rose) so I come back to the wind turbine axis vertical, why not?
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loop
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by loop » 29/11/07, 21:34

Damienf
I am not sure that your generator produces current at a speed lower than the nominal speed
To fully understand the operation of an alternator, you must know that the rotor must reach a certain speed before initiating the production of current.
This is not the case with permanent magnet alternators but there is not one equivalent to your system
Know that 20Kw is a huge power for a self-built wind production
The rectification of the current is of course possible, you can take the example of a battery charger which is connected to the 220V and which performs the charge regulation on the 12V

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damienf
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by damienf » 29/11/07, 21:40

The alternator is fitted with a voltmitter which changes in proportion to the speed and demand; if all the devices are working, the tractor must be shot and given a gas boost; it is rudimentary and it is better not to use electronics that are too sophisticated at this time; moreover, I did say that there is an inverter for security, notably of the network (case of a wire on the ground and of an agent that could be electrocuted; hello responsibility) and therefore no question turn the meter upside down
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by bobono » 29/11/07, 21:51

The best for you is to make your own wind turbine with the alternator adapted to the machine.

In particular, it must start up empty and as soon as the speed is sufficient, gradually charge it. Smart regulation otherwise it will take winds 20 km / h to make it run.
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loop
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by loop » 29/11/07, 22:37

Damienf
A generator or an alternator produces, at no load, a voltage proportional, or almost, to the speed of rotation
In the case of use in an aerogenerator, it is the charge regulator / battery couple which stabilizes the voltage and makes it possible to compensate for voltage variations
If the wind strengthens, the tension will increase very little while the intensity supplied will increase rapidly
Basic rule, P = UxI, so if the electrical power supplied varies, the battery, which acts as a buffer, will prevent the voltage from rising above 14v, otherwise it is the controller that plays this role
The battery capacity must of course be adapted to the power of the machine to "digest" the amps.
In case the wind is zero or insufficient to turn the rotor beyond the minimum speed, there is no charge of the battery, it will discharge according to the downstream demand
There are special inverters that can reconnect you to the EDF network in case the battery is too discharged

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by crispus » 30/11/07, 00:36

Hello,

I am an electrical engineer but I have no concrete experience in wind power. Some loose remarks.

What worries me is wanting to build a wind turbine to ensure autonomy on stormy days. There are few models capable of operating in strong wind or gusts.

Considering the power of the "beast" the use of heavy batteries may "plumb" your bill. : Lol:

It seems to me more economical to forget the "luxury" version batteries / inverter / resale to EDF, and move towards direct use of the generator on the network of your farm, by carrying out a simple frequency regulation by mechanical differential: the speed of rotation of the alternator must remain constant.

The frequency of the EDF network is extremely precise, all the power stations connected to the network behave like a huge flywheel, which guarantees the 50Hz to at least 0,01%. I heard that EDF controls the number of sector periods per 24 hours to adjust it to exactly
3600 (s) x 24 (h) x 50 (Hz) = 4. : Cheesy:
_________

On the other hand if you are disconnected from the network, the inverter becomes useless:

- most electric motors support 5% frequency variations without flinching, as long as they are progressive and smooth.

- electronic devices use a rectifier and are designed equally for 50/60 Hz.

On the other hand, the voltage must remain stable at 3% for correct lighting. But the voltage regulation is incorporated as standard in your generator ... No additional costs.

To limit the influence of wind swings:

- upwards: your generator has "Leblanc dampers" which brake the machine by eddy current if it is subjected to a sudden torque and tends to accelerate suddenly. The acceleration can only be gradual ...

- downward: there, a very large flywheel must be provided, to store energy for a few seconds. Finally, if the wind is too irregular, the use of batteries may be essential, but only on a sensitive part of the installation?
_________

I also remember a technique used by EDF to regulate its traffic: turbining.

a) During off-peak hours, nuclear power plants are used to supply pumps pumping water into altitude reservoirs,

b) During peak hours, this water goes down in turbines, supplying alternators for only a few minutes per hour.

Image

This technique worthy of the Shadoks, saves EDF a lot of money, by dispensing with the need to run thermal power plants empty just "just in case".

For those who have 2 large capacity water tanks, one of which is located at a sufficient altitude, it is a frequency regulation technique which seems to me more reliable and less costly than the batteries / inverter couple:

Image

- The wind turbine drives a rustic pump, which pumps water back into the tank. No matter how fast or how fast ...

- the tank feeds a hydraulic turbine at constant speed.

No risk of overspeed, just close the valve.
In the absence of wind, the basin continues to empty, it will fill at the next gust ...

And if it is full, you disengage the wind turbine or close the water supply to the pump, which is the same thing.

Someone may have already suggested that, the forum becomes so bushy that I can't read everything ...
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loop
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by loop » 30/11/07, 07:05

Hello

Damienf's problem is twofold
He wants to ensure his electric autonomy on days when the network is cut and make his generator profitable, which only serves a few hours a year.
For the first objective, there is no choice, enough electrical or mechanical energy must be stored to power the generator on days without EDF
For the second objective, it can always produce a variable power with the wind (instantaneous or lasting) but the electricity produced cannot be used directly on the installation without an inverter.

Storage of mechanical energy by water or compressed air?
Yes it is still possible, but with what investment and what regulation
In my opinion, Damienf must make a consumption assessment to simply check the most demanding items and essentials, fridge, security etc. and decide to cap its consumption in the event of a power outage
For intermittent production during the year, power can very well be sent to a consumer indifferent to the voltage and frequency like a hot water tank

Good reflection

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by jonule » 30/11/07, 09:39

Hello !
your "shit" is black gold without knowing it, europe understood it when we see that in germany 3500 instals, in france 4! ... in sweden, a train runs on biogas ... when we know the evolution of petroe! finally ...
I put agricultural info here:
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/oil/paysan.html
and here :
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/biogaz/biogaz2.html

you will see how those from developed countries install, there are plastic bags but also bricks or metal drums etc ...
and they do not need to buy a gasoline engine (gas) that makes electricity and hot water, they use gas directly for them (well yes it goes up too) ... so in case or !

for your engine which requires 540 rpm, search on this forum with "hydraulic turbine" you will understand the difficulty of 220V: 50Hz! it must run at a specific speed, with a whole bunch of mechanical, electrical regulations etc ... but it is possible!

yes a river is profitable: the proof we say that there is "current"! -)

only one thing matters: your needs!
electric, heat, etc ...

heat network to resell at the town hall near you?
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 30/11/07, 10:25

jonule wrote:you will see how those from developed countries install, there are plastic bags but also bricks or metal drums etc ...


This is precisely what I wanted to say above: a self-built installation "not approved for redemption from EDF" may turn out to be very inexpensive in the end ... and therefore very profitable.

Especially since in your case you would not have to make a continuous installation, just to make a desired quantity of biogas and to store it to then use it in a "suitable" engine.

An example of biogas in africa with full report to download: https://www.econologie.com/biomethanisat ... es-91.html

And that's what annoys EdF ... : Cheesy:

I widely recommend these 2 books (reference) for those interested in the technique: https://www.econologie.com/forums/biogaz-et- ... t4364.html
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