Wind power: for or against the wind?

[Meszigues3]

Too bad the electricity is stored so badly. Too bad nuclear power plants do not regulate themselves well. Too bad the price reductions are not returned to users, who would quickly have to adapt part of their demand. Too bad there is no more cogeneration from biomethane, an energy that is "stored naturally" [if we wanted, here too, to pass on price variations to producers, who could not easily cogenerate for peak hours, on condition of doubling or tripling their storage capacity and their cogeneration units).

In short, a pity that we are not more intelligent (in the mean sense) ...

I don't think it would be enough to be smarter or clever.

We are facing realities noted: (http://www.rte-france.com/fr/eco2mix/chiffres-cles)

Electricity cannot be stored;
Wind production varied between 72 MW and 9455 MW in France in 2017 (and all European wind turbines often vary at the same time);
Nuclear production cannot correct such variations, even planned one or two days in advance;
The biomass fleet is negligible: 1927 MW, or 1,4% of the French fleet. Faced with 19141 MW of wind + solar (10 times more), it would be necessary to multiply by 5 (or more) the installed park. Do we have fuel? (I do not know).
Pass on the price reductions to users? What do you want them to do with electricity at 4:00 am? Negative prices in Germany: nobody wants it. The user cannot store electricity either (except in water heaters where you can store a fraction of a euro per night).

On the other hand, we could, and we will get there, increase the rates during peak hours. Because if we can't consume (or store) when we don't need it, we can limit part of our needs if the prices push us.

Take advantage of the German experience for free: pollution, high prices, erratic production.
Do not imitate them.

[balandar]

Hello
I am for the wind turbines by turning it make less noise than the wind makes it in the leaves of the trees, so he defrauded telling all those who are against that we must cut the trees to avoid noise (laugh) all these people can not stand anything even their shadows while renewable energies are our future unless we go back 1000 years with nothing and under the thumb of the lords

[moinsdewatt]

Vestas will rebuild a wind farm in Italy, 59 "small" 600 kW wind turbines will be replaced by 16 of 3.3 MW.
The age of the elders is not specified.

Vestas to repower two wind farms in Italy

December 1, 2017

Vestas has received a combined 53 MW repowering order for the Castiglione Messer Marino and Schiavi d'Abruzzo wind parks, underlining repowering's growing significance in wind energy's continued growth. Vestas will replace 59 units of third party 600 kW turbines with 16 V112-3.3 MW turbines and hereby increase the wind parks' nominal power by 50 percent whilst reducing the number of wind turbines by more than 70 percent.

The orders are placed by E2i Energie Speciali Srl, a company owned by F2i (Fondi italiani per le infrastrutture) and Edison / EDF group, and are the only projects that will be constructed in the Abruzzo region in central Italy derived from Italy's 2016 and latest auction.

Alberto Musso, Chief Operating Office of E2i Energie Speciali, added “Replacing old machines with fewer, taller and especially more modern units with increased reliability and higher electricity production is one of the main targets of our company. E2i has an historical business relationship with Vestas and this contract to replace wind turbines in two wind farms in the Abruzzo region further strengthens our partnership. ”

Having installed more than 40 percent of Italy's total wind capacity, today's order underlines Vestas' leading position in Italy. The projects take Vestas' announced orders in Italy in 2017 to 169 MW, while order intake from Italian auctions over the last five years surpasses 840 MW.

Marco Graziano, President of Vestas Mediterranean, said “These projects show we are the preferred choice within repowering and underline how our unique technological solutions and auction-related offerings enable our customers' success in auctions. Vestas' repowering capabilities will further strengthen our position in Italy as the country's growing number of older wind turbines will be replaced with modern wind technology that reduces the cost of energy and increases output. ”

Turbine delivery is expected for the third quarter of 2018, whilst commissioning is planned for the fourth quarter of 2018. For the two wind parks, the order includes supply and installation of respectively 12 and four Vestas turbines.

https://www.evwind.es/2017/12/01/vestas ... taly/61957

[Did67]

Pass on the price reductions to users? What do you want them to do with electricity at 4:00 am? Negative prices in Germany: nobody wants it. The user cannot store electricity either (except in water heaters where you can store a fraction of a euro per night).

In this case, I was talking about cogeneration: the biogas produced is naturally storable, very easily. It would suffice to increase the size of the "caps" which cover the methanisers or to install storage tanks in tarpaulins.

And double or triple the cogeneration capacity (install 3 groups instead of one).

So the installation would produce gas 24 hours a day ... But we would only run the groups in "red" hours of high demand ... So if these 24 hours a day, 8 groups are needed ... If it is 3 hours per day, it takes 6 (compare to a group rotating 4 hours a day).

This increases investment.

So it only works if the higher price of electricity is returned in part from the producer ...

This is not the case. So a producer installs only one group, which runs 24 hours a day. Even when there is no need for electricity ...

Biogas represents very little at the moment, so of course this is not likely to "re-balance". However, if it develops, we deprived ourselves of a very simple way to rebalance a little bit!

And that's only what I was aiming for when I said that we don't think enough sometimes ...

[Did67]

Negative prices in Germany: nobody wants it ..

Let us be precise: price on the "spot" market (sales of surpluses), which represents a tiny share of electricity, negative, in fact at certain times.

This also affects EdF, unable to brake its nuclear reactors (less this year, half - or not far - is shut down).

This is not a "specifically German problem".

[sicetaitsimple]

In this case, I was talking about cogeneration: the biogas produced is naturally storable, very easily. It would suffice to increase the size of the "caps" which cover the methanisers or to install storage tanks in tarpaulins.

And double or triple the cogeneration capacity (install 3 groups instead of one).

So the installation would produce gas 24 hours a day ... But we would only run the groups in "red" hours of high demand ... So if these 24 hours a day, 8 groups are needed ... If it is 3 hours per day, it takes 6 (compare to a group rotating 4 hours a day).

This increases investment.

So it only works if the higher price of electricity is returned in part from the producer ...

This is not the case. So a producer installs only one group, which runs 24 hours a day. Even when there is no need for electricity ...

Biogas represents very little at the moment, so of course this is not likely to "re-balance". However, if it develops, we deprived ourselves of a very simple way to rebalance a little bit!

The best, from my point of view, and it is growing more and more, is to process the biogas until it reaches the network specification, and then inject it into it. Of course you have to be near the gas network, which sometimes is not the case. And it is the gas network which naturally plays the role of storage.

[chatelot16]

modulating the power of biogas generator sets is much simpler than purifying biogas to meet natural gas standards

if we introduce into the gas network, an impure or corrosive gas the possible damage is enormous ... if we purify the biogas with luxurious means we kill the profitability ... be satisfied to make turn larger generator in function demand would be simpler

do not forget that all the means of purifying methane are not perfect, make rejection, and that the least rejection of methane in the atmosphere is an ecological disaster ... running a generator with raw biogas is so much simpler !

a reasonable solution is the coupling of the generator + purification of biogas in small quantities for the network: all the rejections from the purification system are consumed by the generator

[sicetaitsimple]

a reasonable solution is the coupling of the generator + purification of biogas in small quantities for the network: all the rejections from the purification system are consumed by the generator

As a general rule, in a system with network injection, it is a lean gas boiler from purification that supplies the heat in any case necessary to regulate the temperature of the digester, so all recoverable gaseous emissions are well consumed.

[sicetaitsimple]

if we purify biogas with luxurious means we kill profitability ... just running larger generator sets according to demand would be simpler

Invoking profitability comparisons between the two ways of doing things does not seem really relevant to me, because in any case the profitability of these projects (whether they are producers of injected gas or electricity) is (mainly) ensured only by a purchase price of the product (gas or electricity) 3 to 5 times higher (it is an order of magnitude from memory) to the price of the same product manufactured or purchased in a "conventional" way.

It is the community which in one way or another (investment subsidy, CSPE style tax, etc.) pays this additional cost. We could possibly compare these additional costs to minimize it, it would already be more relevant.

But I rather start from a simple observation:
- PV or wind power produce electricity, which act. So they will inject into the electrical network or be self-consumed by gradually replacing conventional production.
- anaerobic digestion produces methane, so we inject, after treatment, into the natural gas network, rather than producing electricity "in 365/365 tape" which we generally do not need today, France being structurally an exporter of electricity, while it is a 100% importer of its gas.

[Meszigues3]

Let us be precise: price on the "spot" market (sales of surpluses), which represents a tiny share of electricity, negative, in fact at certain times.

This also affects EdF, unable to brake its nuclear reactors (less this year, half - or not far - is shut down).

This is not a "specifically German problem".

Agree for the spot market which only concerns part of the market.

EdF is still much less affected than the Germans by negative prices; it seemed to me that the market had been disrupted since the erratic production of renewable energies and not because of the nuclear power stations; whatever.