A hydrogen boat? WHY NOT

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
Chatham
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Re: boat




by Chatham » 04/04/08, 12:19

tigrou_838 wrote:hello, I followed this post well and do not understand too much.

it is so much easier to do like many sailboats, mainsail + jib + spinnaker, to move the boat forward.

small wind turbine which recharges batteries, and supplies a small electric motor for windless days or for maneuvering in ports.



Those who sail are well aware that a wind turbine to recharge the batteries of a boat is worth nothing (not very powerful) and it is often noisy and always fragile: the only really effective and strong thing is hydrogenerator: we certainly lose a bit of speed, but the available power is very important and allows recharging batteries for propulsion: this is also the solution adopted on certain sailboats with hybrid engines, especially in Germany and the USA:
-propulsion by electric motor 110 to 400volt which can also make generator + propeller with variable pitch (very expensive)
-big battery park (alas it is very heavy, need to count 200kg minimum for a boat of 12m ...)
-powerful generator to be able to continue to navigate the engine if the batteries are empty.
As surprising as it sounds, the efficiency remains correct at medium speed thanks to the torque of the electric motor incomparably higher than that of a thermal engine at low speed ...
Disadvantage of the system: it is heavier than a diesel + reducer / inverter and significantly more expensive which explains its rarity ...
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a boat




by tigrou_838 » 04/04/08, 12:40

sorry if i said nonsense.
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by mars66 » 04/04/08, 18:40

1207327149TFJsjh.JPG
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by Pierre-Yves » 04/04/08, 18:44

mars66 wrote:1207327149TFJsjh.JPG

you have to click on "insert an image". Otherwise we see nothing. Thank you !!
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by mars66 » 04/04/08, 19:10

Hi Windjammer,
As I can not put this damn photo, I wanted to explain that the type of boat that is at my disposal looks like a cross between a trawler and a trawler, its weight and 90 Tons, the two engines are 110hp , the hull and of planing type, draft 2,20m and it dates from 1978? here it is, i think i have filled in some missing details, with apologies
Mars66
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on sea




by Wind Howler » 04/04/08, 21:37

There is no stupidity on the forums: only phases of reflection. In a way, "Brainstorming".
After years of sailing on boats of different sizes, of different types, with one or more hulls, and all kinds of rigs on half the seas of the globe,: I defined "mine":
- drift monohull, not too big: above 12 meters overall, we go to the "big" boat, with the problems of congestion, access to shelters and the exciting "inland waterways", and budget which follow,
- flexible rotating masts without shrouds with reduction of sail by winding around the mast, for performance, efficiency and maneuverability, if possible designed and built by the American architect Sponberg (not given, mainly because of the price of masts in carbon and bearing which allows rotation, but at the current rate of the dollar this should be possible, especially as the economy achieved on the standing rigging and its accessories is appreciable), I admit that I cultivate the vice of maneuvering to sailing, at worst by scull, even where it is not frankly authorized, only as a last resort to the engine. The long Chinese scull is a marvel of ingenuity and efficiency.
- not a riot of electricity: before Ohm's law, it is that of the maximum emm ... that applies. High beams and LED lights, a reasonable GPS for when the weather is not very clear (don't be sectarian, many valuable sailors are lost due to poor visibility conditions), a the same sounder (oh yes!) and perhaps a minimum radar. But I don't see myself, lazily, depriving myself of the pleasure of sailing sextant or "piloting" near the coast.
therefore an alternator coupled to the propeller shaft in "freewheel" mode, it works very well, a Rutland "aerogen 4" wind turbine for anchorages - powerful, robust, efficient and not very noisy - and removable because of the windage on the way , flexible solar panels on the roof (I hate aft gantries: - dunnage and weight on the stern - but after all, everyone is free to sail like a pig: all you need is a big diesel at the bottom - and "that keeps the business going ", as our" old "GPThierry said), a very small engine well installed, insulated and soundproofed, operating at constant speed, recharging the batteries if the wind is too low and, when necessary, supplying an engine electric propulsion.

for the anecdote: the "Snark", sailboat of Jack London - about 15 meters overall - carried 1000 US gallons (approximately 4,40 cubic meters) of GASOLINE. Jack London had learned to sail on sailboats without an engine. Jacques-Yves Le Toumelin, and, before him of course Joshua Slocum, made a complete tour of the world on non-motorized sailboats. After his round-the-world tour, Le Toumelin had a Diesel engine installed on "Kurun": son of a long-haul captain, a former merchant navy sailor, we can estimate that he had some reasons for doing so. Jean Gau, whom I knew well, saved his life and his boat three times thanks to his engine - gasoline, but he did not store a tank on board -. To each his own adaptations and solutions. All learning, and the sea is one of the greatest and most complete, is made of trial and error. The latter are expensive - more and more: any material - including sails - and any accessory directly or indirectly includes a cost related to oil. Learning the sea is a limitless enrichment: you only stop doing it when you swap your boat for a garden, for lack of being able to do otherwise: then you have to start all over again, and learn the land.

Speaking of hybrid propulsion at sea, the extreme case: the Normandie. 29.420 Kw on the propeller shafts! (details on "Wikipedia": it is marginal compared to the subject). The ship was not particularly ecological: it had to be produced, the electric current !.

Another anecdote: on the liner "Pasteur" (connection with Indochina after 1945), part of the heat from the engine exhaust gases was recovered at the level of the chimney, and used in a generator producing 37 Kw. electricity.
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by Wind Howler » 05/04/08, 00:06

slt March 66
lack of image, I find it hard to get an idea.
in any case 90 tonnes, sculling, it is not obvious (except flat calm, with the cigarette smoke which remains on the spot: at the end of a certain time of musculation, the boat advances in these conditions, but it Then stop it. And if the breeze rises ... hot!).
I sailed on a classic tuna boat (80 tonnes, Baudoin 4-cylinder 45 hp engine (33 kw), 4,5 knots out of the port, 250 m2 of sail, including the mainsail and its rigging - 2 tonnes in total- that we hoisted with a motorized winch of 6 ch (4,4 Kw).
I had the experience of ferrying the "émigrant" tuna boat (about 80 tonnes, a Baudoin 6 cylinder engine of 80 hp (59 Kw), cruising speed 9 knots. I was a mechanic of a tuna boat of Sète of 24 meters, 100 tons, a Baudoin 12 cylinders 450 hp (331 Kw), useful speed 13-13,5 knots. 220 hp - (162 Kw) for 90 tons could give a useful speed of 10 to 12 knots depending on the shapes and state of cleanliness of the hull - "pifometric" evaluation means.
A 90 tonne boat should be able to support large wind turbines, but at what cost! And without providing sufficient power. An experiment: to pass the Cap Creux downwind on an average boat on a well-established tramontane day, and then measure the wind speed ("relative wind: true wind speed - boat speed). I did it under these conditions precise, by force 9 on a "Gibsea33", under jib n ° 1, this one deflated completely when the boat hurtled down the waves.
Roussillon is a beautiful region for stationary wind turbines, but I doubt those which "flee the wind". A well calculated and well done rig (and which will cost as much as a powerful wind turbine, while being more efficient), plus a marine wind turbine like Rutland "aerogen 6" (I have no shares in the house, I rely on my personal experience and that of many users and testers) and a few well-placed solar panels, a hydrogenerator on a propeller shaft (pulley + belt + alternator) will provide the operating current (lighting, navigation devices, radio, music, possibly "reasonable" refrigerator. Current engines - ("pantonized" or powered by HPV?) can be used alternately - or together - in dead calm, even downwind, jib brought and mainsail and mizzen s There are some bordered almost in the axis (the "iron Jib" of the English or the "vela motore" of the Italians), engine at economic cruising speed, to make a close close worthy of the "America class".
An improvised rigging, tinkered with, would be ineffective for propulsion and / or would break.
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by mars66 » 05/04/08, 11:26

The scull, the scull !!!! that's good, my little wife wants me to move around a bit and since I had nothing to do for the next thirty days, it's cool.

Otherwise what is HPV, wouldn't it be the super hydrogen fuel cell ?? I don't have your technical vocabularies yet ... but it comes, it comes.

the wind turbine that I mentioned above is not yet visible but I think I can have a photo soon. Its measures are 4m in diameter and two high

On occasion if some go down south this summer (or before) to Perpignan (5mn stop) and they want to see the boat and discuss the project, you are welcome, we have enough to stay.

PS: I really appreciate this forum and I want to thank everyone who participated and will continue to do so
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by Pierre-Yves » 05/04/08, 11:33

an HPV is a variable pitch propeller, which always allows the maximum torque of the engine to be obtained, whatever the speed.
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by Pierre-Yves » 05/04/08, 11:44

I still clicked faster than my shadow!

Windjammer used the acronym HPV instead of HVP (pure vegetable oil). HVP is a bad idea for a lot of reasons:
- the overall CO2 balance is not necessarily favorable,
- the agricultural areas to produce them are not infinitely expandable
- I read today that there were revolts against hunger in several Third World countries: eating or burning in engines, that is the question
- on marine engines, HVP is only possible if the engine is at least at 50% load (source CRIRAD), below and when the engine is cold, diesel is required. It is therefore necessary to have a double system, diesel-HPV.

Given the characteristics of your boat, I maintain that the solution with wind turbines is a bad idea, unless it is a small wind turbine for some domestic uses. For propulsion, there are a thousand more interesting things to do.
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