A hydrogen boat? WHY NOT

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mars66
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by mars66 » 02/04/08, 19:46

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by mars66 » 02/04/08, 20:06

Dear Christophe,
keneni, no hatred, just a touch of humor for CHATAM, no more no less and even if you think he's right, I'm not looking for that kind of remark which for me is not very constructive, I need more people who demonstrate to me instead of this kind of criticism that does not answer my questions, if I am there asking you questions on the subject, it is that I am looking for a solution with people who can give me answers this kind of light that my 15 year old daughter can bring me out with her humor (like her father)
Anyway if I offended Chatam, a thousand excuses.
Fair play
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by mars66 » 03/04/08, 11:25

Hello everyone,
Regarding the storage of hydrogen is anyone know how this American (in New Jersey) could do it in tanks safely and by what means, I thought that today was impossible or very risk.
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by Christophe » 03/04/08, 11:32

mars66 wrote:this one too is very simple
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=tJBQUM52dhw&NR=1


Have you noticed the large section of wires? This supposes a high amperage therefore power.

The H2 will promote combustion therefore 20% reduction in consumption ok but not 90% ... unless you do the H2 thanks to the electrical network ... but it becomes stupid ...

For the storage of your "idol" in the news jersey not only does it cost a fortune but in addition it is unthinkable in France because of the standards ...

Remember the guy who came up with this is millionaire...
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by Remundo » 03/04/08, 12:17

March66,

On H2 storage, I don't want to discourage you. But you should know that H2 is the most diffusive gas because its size is tiny compared to the interstices of any crystalline network, metallic or not.

So even at BMW, with their 7 Hydrogen series, the full compressed tanks at 700 Bar are emptied after a few weeks spontaneously. Like a porous air chamber, it's the same principle ...

And if you don't compress, you limit the distribution, but then you need gigantic tanks ...

Here. I advise you to take technologically controlled and efficient ways, like batteries. They have made very big progress!

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Re: A hydrogen boat? WHY NOT




by Chatham » 03/04/08, 13:18

mars66 wrote:A hydrogen boat !!!

Voila, let’s explain, I’m going to have a 23-meter explorer-type boat (which is not advancing fast but surely between 12 and 15 nx). I explain to you the idea that I would like to exploit with you. By coupling a 2KW wind turbine, see two: dimension 2 m height X 4 m in diameter, one should without problem produce enough electricity to produce hydrogen in order to run a hybrid electric / hydrogen engine.


I do not know the type of boat you are talking about, but if for 23m (a very big boat already!) It only spins 15 knots, it is therefore a heavy displacement boat, which would make us 70 to 100 tonnes of displacement and to propel it need to pif a diesel of ~ 300hp ... engine that quietly eats its 30L / h at economic speed this makes a little 100L / 100km being optimistic ... and you hope to power this kind of machine with hydrogen ... not very realistic (especially for reasons that others have already explained) ...
I once spoke with the owner of a 12m sailboat, not very rich, who was thinking of buying a trawler for the retreat (displacement motor boat capable of doing a trans-oceanic) because he was afraid of not being at the height physical level with a sailboat getting older and wanted more comfort (washing machine etc ...): I pointed out to him the very high cost of fuel, even for a trawler which is relatively economical and advised instead to move towards a good "Fifty" which combines the advantages of the motor boat (in particular a real interior wheelhouse) and of the sailboat ... at the last news, he bought second hand, a few years ago, a magnificent Norwegian Nauticat type motor-sailer which fully satisfies him, and his wife too because it is a real floating apartment with all the comforts ... and has already allowed him to cross the Atlantic to the West Indies and back, quietly , under sail, using the engine only in the event of nt ... which is notably more economical (and ecological) than eating 6 m3 of diesel per crossing with a trawler ... :D
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by Capt_Maloche » 03/04/08, 14:08

Hi Chatam,

off topic: there are 2 questions waiting for you on CAI engines on the topic: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... 83-60.html

Plus one on the fuel injection T °
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a hydrogen boat?




by Wind Howler » 03/04/08, 14:15

Hello,
first of all, I'm not going to be critical in a destructive spirit; simply because it is a shame to waste time (of life) and intellectual energy in a dead end.
1/12 to 15 knots, not fast? it is already a valid commercial speed. Marine mechanic, I sailed on a freighter whose useful speed was 13,5 knots, and which made the prosperity of its owners. The over 20 knots of modern large freighters are another issue. At 15 knots on a multihull with sails, you have to start to "hang on" (remember that the more wind there is, the more "sea" there is).
2 / each "transformation of energy" is accompanied by a significant loss of the initial energy (this is the notion of efficiency).
3 / tests of on-board wind turbines were carried out, with coupling of the "windmill" on the propeller shaft. The most famous is the "Bois Rosé" (from the name of a Norman privateer), which ended up abandoned, recently taken over by the English (I have the impression that the English have experienced almost everything in terms of navigation at sail, from the most efficient to the most eccentric: the English documentation is a real gold mine) on two catamarans, a failure for aerodynamic reasons: very effective against the wind, but the action of the "chop" on the hulls ruined the boat. efficiency of the motive power, and deplorable performance when the wind came from the back of the beam: the wind turbine then "fled" the wind ... including wide reach, the most powerful speed when sailing under sail.
The more recent innovations (Flettner's "rotor", "turboshaft" etc ...) although very expensive, were not decisive progress, although a time "in fashion".
My current research focuses on the sails, essentially on their maneuverability (their current aerodynamics being almost perfect): the sails have a large surface, therefore a great power, for a weight, a minimum bulk (using modern winding processes) , reliability (in particular with the use of rotary masts without carbon shrouds), exceptional performance.
Note that at sea, the less technical complexity, the better: the sea and the wind undermine any material that is neither sufficiently robust ("too strong has never been lacking") nor simple enough . With poles, rope, hammer, saw, nails or rivets, needles and wire, you will always get by.
A few years ago, I took a 10-day cruise in Corsica consuming 10 liters of diesel. Previously, I had done the same route, as an employee, on a cruise yacht which consumed 600 liters of diesel per day! I crossed the Atlantic for 0,1 liter of diesel per thousand, still I was in a hurry, otherwise I would have waited in flat calm!
I recently had the experience of a wind turbine on a small trimaran between England and Brittany: an excellent "Rutland aerogen 4". The "dunnage" (aerodynamic drag) of this device, placed at the extreme rear of the ship, was practically equivalent to that of a mizzen - without producing the thrust - and required a rudder correction of more than 20 °, d '' where a strong braking as well as constraints on the rudder - which obliged me, to mitigate these parasitic phenomena, to sail permanently with 1 or 2 reefs in the mainsail, thus making me lose 1/3 of the power (speed 12 knots instead of 14 to 16).
I think there is still a lot to be invented, and the oil crisis is going to stimulate creativity to an unimaginable extent. However, to innovate in the conditions of the modern world, it is necessary to explore, inform and compile considerably, so as not to get lost in dead ends or reinvent what has already been - and is generally protected by patents. - (Internet is a great tool in this process). It would be a waste of "gray matter", for nothing, unless it is a pleasure in itself.

Good luck. The characteristic of man, unlike a chicken or a cow, is to seek, possibly to find: big things, or small. In the USA, a country I know a little about (it's so big!), There are lots of "garage inventors" who, knowing how to use their heads and their hands, make amazing (and profitable) discoveries. And others who just have fun, which in my opinion is also important, because what could be better than loving life and your own in particular?
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Re: a hydrogen boat?




by Chatham » 03/04/08, 14:41

Windjammer wrote:1/12 to 15 knots, not fast? it is already a valid commercial speed. Marine mechanic, I sailed on a freighter whose useful speed was 13,5 knots, and which made the prosperity of its owners. The over 20 knots of modern large freighters are another issue. At 15 knots on a multihull with sails, you have to start to "hang on" (remember that the more wind there is, the more "sea" there is).


Overall I agree with you, but 13.5 knots is barely faster than a WWII Liberty ship! Of course, coasters (like the one that ran aground on a beach recently) are often not very fast, but modern cargo ships tend to go 18 to 26 knots (see Emma Maersk) ...
A sailboat of 23m even heavy can reach 15 knots if there is enough dinghy (the speed is proportional to the waterline length; a heavy 12m for example it will be around 8 knots), a multihull of this size it's rather, 25 knots hanging on, 15 cushy knots ... :D

As for the solidity of a cargo ship, the standard is to be able to withstand a wave developing 30 tonnes per m², but we now know that certain so-called "rogue" waves can develop more than 100 tonnes per m². ..
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by Targol » 03/04/08, 14:44

I quite agree with the reservations expressed by Remondo and Chatam.
Furthermore, and without wanting to play the lesson giver, I think you took the problem upside down:
You ask the question "Why not a hydrogen boat?"whereas in my opinion the correct question is"how to advance a boat?"

To answer this question, let's summarize the input data of the studied system (23m pleasure boat):
Constraints:
  • limited space,
  • potentially high corrosion due to sea spray and seawater-laden air,
  • shock and vibration due to swell and waves,
  • the system must be as autonomous as possible with daily maintenance limited to the means available,
  • I probably forget others : Wink:

Possible energy inputs:
  • liquid fuel (fossil, HVB, Hydogen),
  • Sun,
  • Wind,
  • Swell movements
  • Potential chemical energy contained in seawater


Liquid fuels are generally coupled to a heat engine which is quite a drop in their performance. They impose large tanks which, in general, can only be filled once on land. In addition, in most cases, the fuels in question are fossil fuels, making them an unsuitable response to an economic project.
We can nevertheless consider adapting a marine diesel engine to make it run on HVB, or even, we can pantonize it. We thus have a much more economical project since it runs on renewable fuels and, thanks to the pantone, the engine efficiency has been increased. We also take advantage of this to increase autonomy.
After, the other option if you stay on the engine is hydrogen. For reasons of tightness of the tanks, it is necessary to produce the hydrogen on site. This imposes a significant overweight and advanced technicians who may not be able to resist the harshness of the marine environment. In addition, even if you manage to produce a hydrogen generator, you will still have the problem of hydrogen leaks (highly explosive) in the relatively confined environment that is a boat.

Sun and wind have been in the navy for a long time. In addition to traditional sailing, the simplicity of which is somewhat counteracted by the relative difficulty of use for neophytes, wind turbines and solar collectors can be almost permanent sources of energy at sea (It is quite rare that there neither wind nor sun). Coupled with batteries and an electric motor, these energy sources can be an attractive alternative to the thermal option.

Finally, the energy of the swell is currently only used anecdotally as in this project: https://www.econologie.com/forums/un-bateau- ... t4994.html

In summary, I would say that, if this type of project seems possible to me (and again with great R&D efforts) on much larger boats (freighters, tankers, liners, ...), the complexity and the number of Steps from primary energy (wind) to final energy (mechanical -> rotation of a propeller) really seem like a huge brake to be able to be viable on a "small" pleasure boat.

Now, my knowledge of the hydrogen sector is very limited .... on the other hand, I know the sea well : Cheesy:
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