Thorium: the future of nuclear power?

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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by izentrop » 18/02/18, 19:29

I give the explanatory video of the operation.
2: 18: the reprocessing of fission waste.
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Remundo » 18/02/18, 19:44

bardal wrote:It's not the fission products that are problematic, even those with a very long lifespan (which in principle are very little radiotoxic); all are manageable on a "historical" scale and very quickly go down to an emission level lower than that of ore ...

Aahhh Bardal the reassurer of service ...

FPs are stored in swimming pools for decades, and even for a century when it comes to those of MOX ... And then we must repackage all this radiant mud to bury it underground ... a real walk of health!
What is problematic are transuraniens (mainly minor actinides); but they are only produced in an infinite quantity in this type of thorium reactor (1000 at 10000 times less than in the uranium sector)

it remains to prove! Otherwise yes transuraniums are even worse than FPs.
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Bardal » 19/02/18, 04:42

There is no service reassurer, but a simple knowledge of the laws of physics ....

And there is nothing left to prove about thorium: its atomic number is too small to produce transuranians, that's all.

Quite curious this way to look everywhere ways to be afraid ... Ignorance can not excuse everything ...
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Remundo » 19/02/18, 13:18

bardal wrote:but a simple knowledge of the laws of physics ....

Well, Bardal, do you know the laws of nuclear physics ??
And there is nothing left to prove in terms of thorium: its atomic number is too small to produce transuranians, that's all.

Ah well, so?

Thorium 232 leads to Uranium 233 by neutron capture (I simplify a little)

A U233 has the same number of protons, ie 92, as all isotopes of uranium ...

And other neutron captures lead to transuranians from U233.

indeed some of the U233 become U234 then U235, which (for a part still) by neutron capture give the transuraniens.

a thorium reactor 232 produces fewer transuranians than the U235-U238 but produces some. No doubt about it.
Quite curious this way to look everywhere ways to be afraid ... Ignorance can not excuse everything ...

you'd better put down a tone!
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Bardal » 19/02/18, 19:49

“A thorium-232 reactor produces fewer transuraniums than the U235-U238 route, but it does. No doubt about it.” l

One can always say that, but it produces only in the state of traces (1000 to 10000 times less than in a REP); on the one hand, it is mainly U238 which produces transuraniens (mainly plutonium), on the other hand the transmutation and fission reactions are not chemical reactions and operate in a probabilistic mode, depending on the time of exposure on the one hand, neutron energy on the other.
Fissile elements in a molten salt reactor can remain there for very long times (30 years, conventionally) and are likely to crack (while their exposure in a boiling water reactor does not exceed 18 months), on the other hand neutrons are emitted over a wide range of energy levels, making it possible to "burn" elements that are not very sensitive to thermal neutrons in current power plants.

All this means that, in the end, actinide production is reduced to the minimum; better still, this type of reactor is able to eliminate very radiotoxic waste produced by our boiling water plants, transforming them into split products infinitely simpler to process (build a blockhouse capable of holding 300 years, we know how to do for a long time) . This would obviously be an elegant way to solve the problem of nuclear waste.

Reassure you Remundo, there is in France only one project of this type, carried by the CNRS in Grenoble, without much financial support, it must be said (our sad governments have been unable since 20 years to have the slightest coherent energy policy, and do anything, which today puts our poor Hulot in embarrassment). On the other hand, China, India, USA, Japan have rushed into the Thorium-liquid salts route, giving them the means. So we can buy them power plants when winter has come ... which will not be long ...
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by izentrop » 19/02/18, 20:27

Canadians are also on the line, they have understood the issue https://www.vice.com/fr_ca/article/qkg8 ... a-la-chine , while at home we continue to build wind turbines with a lot of subsidies, unrelated to the reality of needs.
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Diabolorent » 21/02/18, 20:45

Good evening everyone.

New on the forum I discover this subject.

I did not read all the posts, as much as being honest, but I recorded and watched a program (I think you mention it in the thread) on this subject.

Since then I have not been followed, but I understand that some countries are very interested in this energy production, which is certainly the future, but also the past. if it has been supplanted by nuclear power as we know it today it is for warlike interest and I hope with all my heart (but I doubt so much of the human nature or rather of its decision-makers) that the human will choose this abundant energy (we have thorium in reserve to know more than fuck), safe and abundant. But I do not hear much about it in France and that distresses me.

I will read your posts carefully to see where it is history to go back a bit my esteem towards the human race : Shock: : Mrgreen:
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by sen-no-sen » 23/03/18, 12:28

Nuclear: the reactor of the future Astrid in suspense


According to our information, the CEA has proposed to reduce the size of the fast neutron reactor demonstrator because of a lack of money. The government must decide by the end of the year.

As the horizon begins to clear up on the EPR reactors under construction - tests are underway on the reactors - it is the so-called "fourth generation" nuclear issue that is on the table. Initiated in 2010, Astrid's fast neutron reactor demonstrator project aims to address the problem of waste: by burning depleted uranium and plutonium (France produces 10 tonnes per year) from the combustion of EDF's current fleet. it promises to "close" the fuel cycle and address the issue of raw material supply.

According to our information, the Atomic Energy Commission (CEA), project owner of the program, however, proposed to the government to reduce the initial ambitions. Instead of building a demonstrator of 600 megawatts (MW) (whose commissioning was planned for the 2039 horizon), he is now considering a project of reduced power: between 100 and 200 MW. A review directly related to its financial leeway and those of its partners (EDF, Framatome, Orano ...). "There is no appetite for a project of 600 MW," says a source familiar with the case.
A lot of money on the table

Since 2010, the state has put a lot of money on the table. The Future Investments Program (PIA) has allocated the 627 program millions of euros to 2019, of which 450 million have already been consumed. To this must be added the contributions of the partners and the salaries of the CEA engineers, paid for by the annual subsidy granted to them. "We already had to spend 600 700 million," says a good connoisseur of the file.


Between 500 and 600 people are working on the project, half of them at the CEA, and the rest in the fifteen or so partners (EDF, Framatome, Orano, Cnim, ...) as well as, for a few dozen of them, Japanese , associated with the project since 2014. The overall expense envelope should be between 850 and 900 million at the end of 2019.

And if the nuclear industry defends the "virtuous" principle of fast neutron reactors, the major partners of CEA do not seem very going. Asked about fast neutron reactors, the CEO of Orano (formerly Areva) Philippe Knoche indicated that with the various projects under study in the world, "there could be technological breakthroughs".
"Time recalibration"

As for EDF, "its subject at the moment is mainly to extend its park and renew it with EPR," says an expert. The CEA is now focusing on a stronger partnership - up to the same level - with Japan, which has abandoned its Monju breeder project but is already collaborating on the Astrid project. Some at CEA, also say they are open to a partnership with China, which is rapidly advancing on technology.

The government will have to vote this year. "The reconfiguration of the project, which could result from an expanded partnership and a search for stronger contributions from CEA's partners, or a time-based recalibration of its implementation schedule, are elements that will have to be decided in 2018 if the momentum on this project was to be maintained, "indicated the state this fall in its report on the monitoring of investments for the future.
Véronique Le Billon



https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/energie-environnement/0301218315000-nucleaire-le-reacteur-du-futur-astrid-en-suspens-2149214.php
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by izentrop » 23/03/18, 14:21

The best would be to postpone some credit on the MSFR project, more on and cheaper, but hey! decision-makers have criteria that are not the most technically rational. https://fissionliquide.fr/tag/msfr/
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Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Bardal » 23/03/18, 20:18

Very nice document that you give us there, izentrop .... Yes, very beautiful.
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