Please read "Fill it up".

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear (PWR, EPR, hot fusion, ITER), gas and coal thermal power plants, cogeneration, tri-generation. Peakoil, depletion, economics, technologies and geopolitical strategies. Prices, pollution, economic and social costs ...
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nonoLeRobot
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by nonoLeRobot » 18/11/06, 21:26

Well it's a bit long but there are 2 points that I noted:

"On one condition: that a significant rise in the price of a barrel does not generate faster than expected this situation of high cost and shortage sought by overtaxation. Because in this case, overtaxation becomes unnecessary."


that's for sure the tax would cushion the shock so it will have to be adapted according to the price of orgine otherwise it is stupid. But we must not forget that due to speculation, the oil could fall temporarily so someone who invested a lot to consume less would risk having problems then he could appreciate like the others besides a lower tax / VAT or whatever, fueled by the profits from the oil tax, which would be high if oil was not expensive.

* "So if it is true that even without a surcharge we risk such a recession, sooner or later, I do not see States advocating decrease, which inevitably must lead to reductions in tax revenues, job losses, companies that lose markets, ...... etc, in short a total overhaul of our societies, therefore political instability and therefore an embarrassing situation for our leaders ".


If the increase in the price of oil brings recession it is largely because our money (our work) goes abroad to pay for this oil. With a tax, part of the money (our work) goes back to the state (nothing is lost) and it can (and must and this is where we have to be careful, this is the danger) redistribute it in the form of lightening of charges (employment aid), increase in wages (increase in consumption not related to energy it can be services, art / entertainment or research or other non-polluting activities) , or invest for us in systems that do not require petroleum (eg solar heating) and in these cases, we are effectively preparing for expensive petroleum since we are becoming less and less dependent on it.
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zac
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by zac » 18/11/06, 21:51

Hello

I partly agree with nonot; but being pessimistic I think that the peak oil is reached and that the price of fossil fuels is artificial. Managed by various speculations that cannot last long.

I therefore think that the so-called "industrialized" states will align taxes downwards, in order to guarantee an almost constant price, so as not to slow down their economies.

And the day when the taxes will be close to 0, so the unbeatable price: either the manufacturer will have under the elbow of vehicles running without hydrocarbons (what I believe) or we will return to more healthy values.

@+
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by Woodcutter » 19/11/06, 15:31

bham wrote:[...] It is therefore not by tapping the citizen's wallet that the game will be profoundly changed. Because he, the citizen, can not demand to buy a car that consumes almost nothing, he can not demand to have a roof next to his work, in short, he takes what comes, he has decision-making power only over his life, and more. [...]
I am convinced that very many citizens, as you say:
- do not want to buy a car that consumes little (because it seems too small, not beautiful, not classy, ​​not fashionable, etc ...)
- do not especially want to live near their job because they prefer to have a house rather than an apartment, that the town hall of Trifouilly-les-oies has released plots of land not very expensive, etc ...

So when you say "... [the citizen] takes what presents itself, he has decision-making power only as regards his life... "I don't necessarily agree!
A certain% of people have no choice, others have it completely but they do not choose to consume less because it bothers them !!!

This is where the "constraint" becomes useful ...
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by saveplanet » 19/11/06, 15:38

Just to tell you that yesterday I came across this book (to be honest, I actively looked for it and bought it!) And will therefore read it quickly so that I can discuss it more fully with you.
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by gegyx » 19/11/06, 15:49

zac wrote:being pessimistic I think that peak oil is reached and that the price of fossil fuels is artificial.
I heard this week, that in Venezuela, there were possibilities of future, gigantic, more important extraction than the current Saudi Arabia.
Chavez, of course, added some, saying that he would rather support the development of Latin American countries than Capitalism.
(Weird words, when his country exports 95% of its production to the USA ...)
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by bham » 19/11/06, 17:01

Woodcutter wrote:So when you say "... [the citizen] takes what presents itself, he has decision-making power only as regards his life... "I don't necessarily agree!
A certain% of people have no choice, others have it completely but they do not choose to consume less because it bothers them !!! This is where the "constraint" becomes useful ...

Yes of course and the M6turbo show this morning confirms it when we see the test of a latest generation Porsche 911 by the fashionable DJ and the show's tester on the Abbeville circuit. What counts for some is fun and dreams and no matter the price of fuel.
But what I mean by "he only has decision-making power over his life", I mean that his power to change things is out of proportion to that, phenomenal, of our leaders. They can surround themselves with advisers, call on experts, researchers, direct research avenues, award grants, print an environmental policy that does not stop at inventing taxes, etc., in short they can do a lot, should they want to.
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by Woodcutter » 20/11/06, 10:08

bham wrote:[...] Yes of course and the emission of M6turbo this morning confirms it to us when one sees the test of a Porsche 911 last generation by the fashionable DJ and the tester of the emission on the circuit d Abbeville. What counts for some is pleasure and dreams and no matter the price of fuel. [...]
Yes ... Finally, this is a bit extreme as an example ... : Lol:
A car of this price has a ridiculous distribution so I don't mind ...

No, for me what is more annoying are people, like me or office colleagues, (we will say "the middle classes") who do not do all the small things on a daily basis to consume less because: "frankly huh, whether I do it or not, what will it change? And then first you piss us off with your stupid ecological morality ... " :|
These are the thoughts to which I am entitled when I do anti-consumption "lobbying" at the club ... :frown:

People locked in their little reality and their little comfort who don't want to change anything ...
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bham
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by bham » 20/11/06, 11:28

Woodcutter wrote:
bham wrote:[...] Yes of course and the emission of M6turbo this morning confirms it to us when one sees the test of a Porsche 911 last generation by the fashionable DJ and the tester of the emission on the circuit d Abbeville. What counts for some is pleasure and dreams and no matter the price of fuel. [...]
Yes ... Finally, this is a bit extreme as an example ... : Lol:
A car of this price has a ridiculous distribution so I don't mind ......


Yes, it is extreme, but what must be remembered is the image, the image of power, sportsmanship, virility, social success, money. This is all that we sell, as we sell the latest fashionable mobile, or the latest outfits or ....... etc. Our society works on this and it can even be inclined to pay for the most expensive product possible because it proves that we have the means or that it is necessarily a great product.
Ecology doesn't sell (not yet), it's a killjoy, as your colleagues say, because they should question themselves when they are very happy like that (well, they act as if ). And you're probably a little too "reasonable" for them, don't worry, you're not the only one.

Woodcutter wrote:People locked in their little reality and their little comfort who don't want to change anything ...

Obviously, they operate according to a pattern they learned which is that of our consumer society. They try to find a place in the sun, they play elbows, take refuge in play, sex, consumption, it avoids thinking, they try to find a balance between the aggressions of society and their own lives. If you, you disembark by teaching them moral lessons, it is certain that you were not welcome because you are questioning this balance, because it will force them to think differently, which is very disturbing.
To change that, you have to change the model of society, you need a more human society, less focused on money and competition. And I am not sure that the most prominent political class is capable of bringing about this change.

Woodcutter wrote:A certain% of people have no choice, others have it completely but they do not choose to consume less because it piss them off !!!
This is where the "constraint" becomes useful ......
Yes, but it's not just the tax constraint. Look at the example of cigarettes whose price has gradually gone up. Those who bought packages started buying cartridges, buying abroad via the internet, buying tobacco in bulk and making their cigarettes, in short to adapt; that stopped some of them but what will really put a brake on it is the legislation, the ban on smoking in public places. There was a big dilemma among our leaders: gradually eliminating tax revenues related to tobacco, reducing the incomes of tobacconists and qqs farmers producers or continue to swallow colossal sums in the treatment of tobacco-related diseases. They ended up choosing.
I know green people who don't understand that you can't smoke at home, I know teachers who smoke without complexes at school. There is a real education to be done.
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by nonoLeRobot » 21/11/06, 06:35

Continuation of the tobacco discussion leaves

Here we stay on the book "full please" and therefore possibly the problem of taxing energy.
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by Christophe » 24/11/06, 09:03

nonoLeRobot wrote:Here we stay on the book "full please" and therefore possibly the problem of taxing energy.


Precisely here is an extract from the book which I am surprised that no one has mentioned above ... it is "a little" virulent (but so realistic and I fully share these lines!) And it is obviously a question of energies fossils and the consequences of their use (depletion and warming).

Page 54, last lines, I quote:

The short-term easy way is definitely not to worry about it; and believe that all of this will end up working out on its own. But are we sure, by choosing this path, that the judgment of our descendants (these are our own children, grandchildren and their children, not of indeterminate future generations) will be very tender? Are we really so different from the French in 1936, who cared about going on vacation while Nazi Germany rearmed before their eyes? Will having a car of one ton per adult of driving age, the democratic plane, cell phones and CDs in abundance, or even poorly insulated accommodation, be paid at its fair price if the consequence should be dictatorship, war and disease, even famine for ourselves or our descendants?


The comparison is serious but it is the shocking sentences that can move mentalities, for my part I will have a more Manichean vision "All those who do not fight against global warming, collaborate with the consequences that this implies (dictatorship, war , genocide ...) ". Whatever the scale of the struggle ... the important thing is to contribute ...
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