Oil and GDP per country: energy intensity

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear (PWR, EPR, hot fusion, ITER), gas and coal thermal power plants, cogeneration, tri-generation. Peakoil, depletion, economics, technologies and geopolitical strategies. Prices, pollution, economic and social costs ...
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Remundo
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by Remundo » 18/05/08, 20:26

Well yeah ... At one time I was working in Lyon, it's insane the gasoline that burns on the periphery for nothing ... And in Paris, it's roughly 4 times worse.

I tell you, we like to grill fuel and it's still not expensive enough ... because otherwise 90% of the fleet would be thermal hybrid /electric et rechargeable

But when you know that the state scrapes 1 euro per liter without any cost, representing annually about as much as the income tax that requires officials to manage it, we understand better ... : Idea:

I remind you here that the oil companies only make a few euro cents per liter of profit and break their heads trying to prospect it, extract it and refine it, sometimes in dangerous areas (high seas, local guerrilla ...) really little players next to the state
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by delnoram » 18/05/08, 21:19

Remundo wrote:I remind you here that the oil companies only make a few euro cents per liter of profit and break their heads trying to prospect it, extract it and refine it, sometimes in dangerous areas (high seas, local guerrilla ...) really little players next to the state


Interesting considering the taxes on non-professional fuels, but what is the place occupied by these fuels in the volume consumed in France?
And what are the taxes collected by the state on the "rest" of oil (professional, chemical ...)?
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by Remundo » 18/05/08, 22:41

Hi Delnoram,

I don't have too much time to dissect everything, but you will find part of your answers there:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIPP

In 2007, TIPP represented 60% of the price of Unleaded and 50% of diesel. VAT represents roughly 25%, the base price (cost of extraction / refining + oil margin still 25%.

Right now, for 1 liter of super at 1,4 Euros, 70 cts of TIPP, 35cts of VAT, 35 cts of gasoline. Diesel is gradually aligning with petrol for various reasons: redefining the taxation of diesel following the excessive dieselisation of the fleet (car + truck boom), but also the shortage of diesel in Europe that it entails (imports from the USA, export of excess petrol to the USA ...)

"Professional" fuels are subject to a reduced or exempt TIPP, but still VAT, a colossal windfall in particular on fuel.

TIPP in 2007: 25 billion Euros, + approximately 20 of fuel VAT, or 45 billion Euros.

Income tax: 53,7 billion Euros. If the collection costs are deducted, the 2 direct debits are equivalent, one progressive, the other at a fixed rate. But there is one where you do not feel that you are being buried deep, he hides behind the pretty displays of service stations and does not say his name ...

What do you want, it is necessary to repay the debt, 2000 billion euros "official" (count 3000 unofficial), which I recall that the reimbursement of only interest eats all income tax. Hence "the 2nd income tax" at the pump... :?

Rest assured, to repay the debt, you need the trifle of 40 years of income tax ... :frown:
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by martien007 » 18/05/08, 23:31

"Professional" fuels are subject to a reduced or exempt TIPP, but still VAT, a colossal windfall in particular on fuel


On this subject, the fishermen are very angry. They don't want to go out to fish anymore because they don't earn anything anymore, I think you can believe them with the consumption of their boats!

One witness testified this evening: he said he had his fill of diesel for 1500 euros (? Or francs, that's a lot ...) in 2001 and today it's 3500 : Shock:

So it's all well and good to say that oil must always be more expensive, but what happens to these guys who invested huge sums in the purchase of their trawler? They are not to be spotted in a forum on global warming, they want to be able to make a living from their profession.
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by Remundo » 19/05/08, 00:09

Well as you describe it very well, Martien, these guys have no long-term future if we are not able to produce hydrocarbons cheaply. There is no shortage of technical channels, but we haven't launched them.

They are also victims of the state which taxes their fuel, a little less since they yell, but still, and asymmetrically since the Breton coasts benefit from smoky "compensation devices" and not the Atlantic coast : Shock:

For the record, you and I pay taxes to finance their fuel, just like peasants and truckers. I say this in all neutrality. Everyone seems to be satisfied ...

They are also victims of their own overfishing forcing them to go fishing ever further, but also of European regulations which are not always very logical.

Finally, they did not structurally renew their equipment when the time was right and own old, fuel-efficient boats. It is not now, taken by the throat, that they can do it.

Indeed, a full of trawler for a campaign of a few days is 2000 or 3000 L of diesel, and that makes 2000 Euros. When they paid the sailors, very happy those who do not leave feathers there ...

Clearly, Martian, life is not good for them, but what do you want to do about it? The system will regulate itself with retirements and other bankruptcies while others more solid will fare well. Like everywhere.
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by Philippe Schutt » 19/05/08, 08:24

As far as I am concerned, if fishing is no longer profitable, we abandon it, period. Subsidizing dying sectors is to the detriment of those of the future, it is generally a bad calculation. For example, France has thrown millions into the water while the Germans are promoting renewable energy industries. Today, they speak of 500 employees in the wind energy sector.

on a professional basis only a few trades benefit from a reduced TIPP. This is not generally the case. And VAT is not recoverable on fuel oil for heating. Thus, in the price of any product made in France there is still TIPP and even a double VAT.

But taxes are also integrated into GDP : Lol: the more we pay, the better our position in Christophe's painting
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by dirk pitt » 19/05/08, 09:14

100% access with Philippe. Subsidizing an emerging sector with a future makes it possible to launch it more quickly, but subsidizing a dying sector just to extend it by some months or years is a disservice to these people and a waste of public money. it's hard to say but even if we exempt them from, say 30% of the TIPP, it will be used for what in a few months (at worst 2 or 3 years) when the cost of fuel will go up to the same level with all the others costs which will have risen in the meantime ???
we just lost time (and money)

in a book that I am reading, the author says "parradoxically, it is not the oil which will miss the first but the time to act"
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by martien007 » 19/05/08, 11:40

Finally, they did not structurally renew their equipment when the time was right and own old, fuel-efficient boats. It is not now, taken by the throat, that they can do it


Remundo, it is false: the fisherman who testified had bought his boat 3 or 4 years ago (all ultra-modern). They must all modernize and invest, that's the problem: they are in debt for ten years with their super-boats : Shock:

Quite simply their diesel engines consume a lot of fuel to drag trawls at the bottom of the sea.

There's a guy in this forum who found a way to consume less (pantone?), others have tried fuel from animal fats (subject here too) ... etc .... but the Grenelle of the environment is not at apparently running.

The problem is that they are in competition with farmed fish, especially Norwegians, who have set up "fish factories" in the fjords of southwest Argentina (seen in Thalassa), they raise salmon from the North Atlantic in the South Pacific : Shock: and are destroying the local flora and fauna underwater ..... well done on the breeding !! : Evil:

strike at La Rochelle:

http://www.orange.fr/bin/frame.cgi?u=ht ... ports.html

As far as I am concerned, if fishing is no longer profitable, we abandon it, period. Subsidizing dying sectors is to the detriment of those of the future, it is generally a bad calculation. For example, France has thrown millions into the water while the Germans are promoting renewable energy industries. Today, they speak of 500 employees in the wind energy sector.


This is true in theory, but the reality is different: France has 2/3 of its coastline on the seas (did you notice it?) And also nuclear power plants to produce its electricity (without CO2 emissions .. .for nuclear risk we forget).

So what to do with these fishermen? you want to see a France with ports without fishing boats (it is unthinkable, have you ever been in small ports when the fishermen land their fish - it is very beautiful and the smell !!! -?
With only pleasure boats, our ports will be ugly (they already are) and that is the France of "doing nothing"; it is all the same incredible the rise that has taken the pleasure craft, proof that there is more and more money for leisure.
Aside from sailboats, how much do all these motor boats consume over a year in France?

A France without fishermen is like a France without peasants (the small ones in particular in the mountains, without large 4WD tractors which are sometimes only used to show off with air-conditioned cabin and radio, as for 4X4).

Either way humans will pay dearly for all this crap and it won't be long.
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by Philippe Schutt » 19/05/08, 12:08

you are right, it is necessary to maintain the current state of things at all costs, no matter if the rest suffers. 8)

France is no longer an agricultural country, farmers represent less than 2% of the population. Their political weight and the subsidies they entail are incredibly disproportionate.
ditto for fishermen.

Why not talk about this other report which showed a sardineer rejecting more than 10 tonnes of punctured fish into the sea because he found the market price too low?

Today I see that farmers generate enormous pollution and deplete aquatic resources and degrade the soil. The fishermen have exhausted the seas, and destroy the bottom. But never mind, they want to finish the job and we help them more!

a France without a fishing port and without the smell of rotten fish? no problem. I don't find a trawler beautiful. a few computer or camera factories would do far more jobs.
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by Remundo » 19/05/08, 12:48

martien007 wrote:Remundo, it is false: the fisherman who testified had bought his boat 3 or 4 years ago (all ultra-modern). They must all modernize and invest, that's the problem: they are in debt for ten years with their super-boats : Shock:

Sorry to contradict you, but the boats of the "old" EU member states are very old, France included.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/facts/4_3_5_fr.htm
You will be able to read:
The fleet of the new Member States is significantly younger than that of the European Union countries at 15 (average of 18,5 years against 23,1 years). The average age of fleets in the northern countries is 21,6 years compared to 23,2 years in the southern countries.


and also for Bretons:
http://www.ifremer.fr/docelec/notice/19 ... ce2288.htm
The age structure of the fleet components broken down according to their range of action shows fairly marked disparities. The inshore fleet is the oldest with an average age of 18; less than 30% of these vessels are less than 10 years old. Longer-range fleets had an average age of less than 12 years in 1994, following an intense policy of renewing these units from 1981;

Dating back to 2001, add 5 years to the figures ... These are the oldest shortest range, specifically the trawlers of small fishing bosses ...

And this is only an average ... there must be some 35 year olds in the pile!

An isolated example does not make the overall trend, however annoyed it is to repay its loan contracted at the worst time.
Quite simply their diesel engines consume a lot of fuel to drag trawls at the bottom of the sea.

+1 even for new boats, so the new situation says that we must turn away, at least temporarily, from traditional fishing and develop aquaculture, which is generally less energy-consuming and more respectful of the sea than overfishing.

I quite agree with Philippe when he says that you have to know how to turn the page without stubbornly clinging to visions or nostalgic considerations ... The world is changing! : Idea:

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